November 30, 2000
Burnaby, British Columbia
11969 I believe we have at the table Squamish Nation Chiefs and Council represented by Chief Bill Williams; United Native Nations represented by Scott Clark; Health Association of British Columbia represented by Larry Odegard; Vancouver Métis Association represented by Jean-Paul Stevenson; Interior Alliance represented by Chief Arthur Manuel; Reztown Lighting and Sound Inc. represented by Leonard Fisher; National Aboriginal Veterans Association, B.C. Chapter, represented by Arthur Eggros and the Vancouver Aboriginal Council represented by Bob Joseph.

11970 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

11971 What I would like to do now is just review how we are going to handle this procedurally. So what we will do is hear from each of you in turn and we will question each of you at the close of each presentation.

11972 I just wanted to point out that unlike in Phase I, we are not able to jump around to various intervenors or have others answer questions put by the panel to one. So I hope you will bear with us as we go through this.

11973 So whenever you are ready.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

11974 CHIEF WILLIAMS: (Native language spoken).

11975 Members of the Commission, I am Chief Bill Williams, Chairman of the Squamish Nation Chiefs and Council.

11976 I want to extend a warm welcome to you who have come here to consider awarding a new radio licence in the traditional territories of the Cosalish Peoples.

11977 I would like to clarify that being here last week, last Thursday, I was here on behalf of Protocol as one of the hereditary chiefs of the Cosalish tribes. The hearing was on is the reason why I was here. I am here today specifically because of the representation of the Squarish Nation membership itself.

11978 I am pleased to appear in front of you representing the Squarish Nation. We are one of the most progressive, forward-looking urban First Nation communities in Canada. We are moving ahead with education, economic development and communication initiatives in our community, to name a few directions in which we are going.

11979 It is also a pleasure for me to be here because of my own personal experience with native broadcasting in Canada. My background includes an involvement in the development of the northern native radio here in British Columbia. As one of the founders of the Northern Native Broadcasting, I know about the history, the development, the challenges of creating and operating a native radio network.

11980 I have seen the northern service develop and mature over the years. I have also seen government funding cuts in the NNB's ability to provide adequate service challenged. I have seen how they are adapting to funding cuts and how they must work hard to maintain network programming for the northern audience in remote native communities.

11981 It is good to know that they are providing a valuable service in the north where they have developed their expertise. Here in the south it is a different story.

11982 We receive occasional radio programming through the co-op radio broadcast or reports filtered through mainstream media, but there is no native network here. People have talked about it for years but the focus has been on northern needs and besides there resources have not been available. Urban aboriginal people here have been neglected.

11983 There can be no doubt there is a need and that there is a large potential audience. The urban aboriginal population perhaps is as large of 100,000 in the Vancouver area.

11984 My understanding is that the Aboriginal Voice radio application lays out a project that is for these people. It is devoted to the creation of a national radio service, one that focuses on urban audiences. The Squarish Nation Chiefs and Council are well aware of the needs and we wholeheartedly support the need for a new native radio service in the Vancouver area.

11985 This new service would immediately provide an easy way for us to connect with other First Nations and aboriginal peoples. We will hear their voice and they will hear ours, especially on matters that are important to all of us.

11986 An example is the recent Supreme Court of Canada decision regarding the non-native leaseholders living in the Musqueam Reserve. The perspective on this important story which affects all reserves, lands and came out exclusively of that of the renters. This court case directly affects any lease that is on Squarish Nation lands or any lease holdings that are on any aboriginal reserve lands right across Canada. So it is very important that this information be given to us.

11987 If we had a native network of our own, it would provide an opportunity to educate and inform all Canadians, both locally and nationally. We could have carried out a full and frank discussion of all the related issues in a way that is widely accessible to natives and non-natives.

11988 Squarish Nations voice of support with AVR's proposal is part of that loud course of support from local aboriginal communities and their organizations you will hear from today.

11989 Aboriginal Voices Radio came to us with respect and knowledge of our culture and traditional territory. They reached out to us and explained their national network plans in the vital place of the Vancouver region and its ultimate success.

11990 We agree with that that a truly national native radio network could not exist without the Vancouver radio service. They asked us for support and advice and after they clarified the important aspect of their plan we agreed to support their efforts.

11991 The Squarish Nation puts a high priority on our youth and on education, employment and training. We see opportunities to work with AVR to involve aboriginal youth in our community and we look forward to developing and expanding our relationship.

11992 We support the business plan put forward by the AVR. In particular we support their decision to be fiscally conservative coming out of the gate. Their plan to expand the network as quickly as funding becomes available is wise strategically.

11993 They also realized that the sooner they are able to reach aboriginal audiences across southern Canada, the sooner it will generate significant levels of interest and revenue.

11994 This will lead to greater financial stability and a solid business model not dependent on long-term government hand-outs.

11995 If we were talking about a local radio station it would be a different situation altogether, but I believe in the need for a network first then we can expect to see further developments of the local radio.

11996 For this reason we support AVR's intention to be conservative and practical in the development of a schedule of local program to be heard only here in Vancouver and not over the national network.

11997 And expansion of a radio only program would only be developed once adequate resources become available. This national first approach followed by local expansion is good planning.

11998 I know from my own experience that a network radio service could be financed from a number of revenue sources especially when it reaches a critical point of development.

11999 We are all familiar with the conventional wisdom that money makes money, but we also know the audience side attracts revenue opportunities. It is important to get the network up and running first in Vancouver and other key centres with large aboriginal populations such as Calgary, Regina, Ottawa, Montreal, Atlantic Canada, for example. But how does this all get done in a way that addresses our urgent community needs? We understand that a favourable decision with a licence to a mainstream commercial radio company is not competitive with AVR in this hearing.

12000 We will commit them to significant development funds for an Aboriginal Voices radio. If that happens, then AVR's launch will be a blastoff of historic proportions. You must be excited as we all are about the significance of such a breakthrough for the aboriginal community and the broadcast initiative. Such a large source of funding provides many otherwise unavailable doorways through which other funding includes matching funds that might be secured.

12001 On behalf of our community I deal with financing of major projects, and believe me money does get money.

12002 In summary, we share the AVR's vision of urban aboriginal peoples having new accessible media for communicating native issues and concerns. We see the immense value of a new local area service that would bring together the voices of our own Vancouver and area communities and those of others from across Canada.

12003 We are looking forward to working with AVR to ensure their success, whether in the area of production, radio programming, local studio facilities or education and training.

12004 In summary, we recognize the benefits to the Squarish Nation and to all the people of Vancouver that would come from a favourable licensing decision for both Aboriginal Voices Radio and their commercial broadcast partner.

12005 Members of the Commission, you face an important decision. It is a decision that will make a difference in many ways in many lives.

12006 I wish all the best in your deliberations.

12007 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Chief Williams. Thank you very much for being with us here today.

12008 Many of my questions were based around the extent to which you recognize that there were only modest commitments for local programming with respect to this licence. So you have dealt with many of those in your presentation.

12009 Perhaps you could elaborate a bit on your relationship with Northern Native Broadcasting. As you may know, they have opposed this application and I wonder, are you still involved with them?

12010 CHIEF WILLIAMS: No, I am not.

12011 THE CHAIRPERSON: You are not.

12012 CHIEF WILLIAMS: My capacity was to go around to all 50 aboriginal communities for Northern Native Broadcasting when it was first starting and to give them the light and incorporate them as a company and set up a board of directors and set up a training schedule to train and set out the whole structure that exists today.

12013 THE CHAIRPERSON: So I take it that you are of the view that in an overall sense these two services can coexist and that this --

12014 CHIEF WILLIAMS: Oh, they can definitely coexist. The problem that Northern Native Broadcasting has right now is they don't have the capacity to go 24 hours a day. They don't have the resources or they don't have the staffing to be able to pull all the stories in and put it together.

12015 That's why I see the national network established first because even regionally we wouldn't have the capacity to have a full 24-hour programming immediately and we would need support from other areas of Canada to ensure that we have proper good broadcasting at a calibre and level of calibre that I think is necessary in order to attract the advertising that is required in today's media.

12016 THE CHAIRPERSON: Now tell me, to what extent would, if this were to be launched, the local aboriginal organizations and communities have in Aboriginal Voices? Are those discussions that you have had with Mr. Farmer at this time?

12017 CHIEF WILLIAMS: My understanding is that there is going to be a local board of directors that will oversee programming implementation in Vancouver.

12018 THE CHAIRPERSON: And what about with the overall AVR?

12019 CHIEF WILLIAMS: My understanding is also that we will have a representative on the AVR board to ensure that our voice is not lost.

12020 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

12021 Surely that can't be it. Perhaps it is. I don't have any further questions for you.

12022 Any of my colleagues here? No?

12023 CHIEF WILLIAMS: Thank you very much.

12024 THE CHAIRPERSON: And thank you very much for being with us today.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

12025 MR. CLARK: Good morning.

12026 It is truly an honour to be here before you today to make a presentation in support of the Aboriginal Voices Radio.

12027 My name is Scott Clark and I am the President of the United Native Nations which is a provincial advocacy organization representing the interests of our people throughout the province.

12028 We have over 35,000 members signed up with our organization and we have provincial board representation covering every area of the province.

12029 The organization has a long history of advocating on behalf of aboriginal people and when I use the term "aboriginal", I am speaking in terms of First Nations, status Indians, non-status Indians of which we have 70,000 here in B.C., over 25,000 Métis people and a couple of thousand Inuit people.

12030 British Columbia is home to 28 unique nations with 28 unique languages. The diversity of our people is incredible to say the least. It's really an honour for me to be sitting here at this table with many of the representatives from the different groups that make up our community.

12031 The UNN has been advocating and continues to advocate for ensuring that the voice is heard of aboriginal people -- the diverse voices of aboriginal people. We have a long history of advocating for employment and training, education, child care, child services, justice, transfers. We have a very extensive history in that and we are currently involved in numerous initiatives with the federal and provincial government to address the dire needs of the aboriginal population.

12032 That's the reason why I am here today, because I think this initiative is so important to begin as one significant pillar, to begin to address the needs of our people, and as the leader of the organization, my intent is to support this initiative.

12033 Vancouver, greater Vancouver, is what I like to say the second largest reserve of aboriginal people in the country. Only Winnipeg has a larger aboriginal population. We estimate approximately 60,000 aboriginal people and growing significantly.

12034 Many of our aboriginal people have been living in the cities for lots of reasons, ie. poor housing conditions, small reserves, little economic opportunities, et cetera, within the reserves. As a result, you have second, third, fourth generation aboriginal people living here.

12035 The Canadian government issued the Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples that you may be familiar with. It was a $58 million report, the most expensive report in Canadian history, and within that report they identify the large urban aboriginal population -- up to 80 per cent of aboriginal people live off reserves. Many of them live in the large cities, particularly Vancouver.

12036 There is a common myth out there in the television media and the newspapers, et cetera, that we are First Nations and we live on reserves. The reality is significantly different. As I said earlier, 80 per cent of them live off reserve, many of them are non-status, many of them are Métis or Inuit.

12037 This just goes to show the dire need for this type of a radio station to educate Canadians and to build networks with other ethnic groups and to raise awareness on issues impacting aboriginal people and Canadians as a whole for that matter.

12038 Our task is a very difficult task because we don't have access to the media in a manner that we can get our true realities out there to mainstream government and public.

12039 The radio station, and I am a personal fan of radio myself. It's one of the very few mechanisms where you can get that two-way communication, and we don't have that here in Vancouver and it's direly needed, especially with our young population.

12040 One of the significant things that I wanted to share with you is the aboriginal population is significantly different than the Canadian population. If you look at the demographic profile, over 60 per cent of our people are under the age of 25 and we have the highest fertility rate of any ethnic group in this country. We estimate from the latest statistics that our population will double in 25 to 30 years and then double again in another 35 to 40 years.

12041 It makes it very difficult for us when we have that population difference in mainstream media to have our issues addressed, particularly when government is developing policy and programs for the merging, if you will, baby boom generation who is now moving into retirement, and as a result it's very difficult for us to truly get our differences reflected in mainstream.

12042 Our young people are sitting in a crisis right now. I like to think of it as a ticking time bomb and I say that because if we look to Winnipeg as an example where the highest aboriginal population is, we know that there is over 22 gangs in Winnipeg, aboriginal gangs. We don't experience that here in Vancouver. We have a very dynamic young aboriginal population that is really starting to take ownership over their lives, their identity and getting involved in positive ways in community development.

12043 But our youth are faced with many challenges because our conditions, our youth conditions, aren't the same as mainstream or the non-aboriginal population. Our housing needs, the homeless crisis, single mothers -- you can go right down the list -- HIV/AIDS, disabilities. Those issues aren't being addressed right now and as a result it makes it very difficult for our young people to succeed and one only has to look at that young aboriginal girl who committed suicide. She was 14 years old. She was bullied at school and it's because of that lack of knowledge, that ignorance and that inability for us to communicate our issues out to the broader population.

12044 You can look at it two ways. It's a crisis or it's an opportunity and what our young people are doing is seizing the control. They are out there getting involved in the community organizations. They are out there getting involved asking questions to all the candidates in the most recent election that we had. In fact, there was over 40 aboriginal youth that were actively engaged in raising issues to all the candidates throughout the province.

12045 We see this as a process, a very important process, to assisting young people to learn their identity, re-learn their languages, or learn their languages. We see it as an opportunity for our young people to express their concerns in a positive manner and build relationships with all Canadians. It's happening now.

12046 The AVR application is something that is long overdue. When you look at the radio stations of the day and you look at the content, there is a serious vacuum out there on just some of the issues that I have shared with you that is common knowledge in our communities but is not common for the non-aboriginal society.

12047 It's to me very -- it's a little troubling for me that we move into the new millennium and this isn't in place. You have many radio stations today that make profit off the licensing. We are not talking about making profits for individuals. We are talking about creating a forum for addressing very serious social issues in a positive manner and I sincerely hope that the words I have just shared with you help you influence to support the AVR application because we are talking about community development, community identity, sharing knowledge, building partnerships and starting to address the myriad of issues that are not only impacting the aboriginal community as a whole, but the non-aboriginal community as well.

12048 If I can close off here. We really have an opportunity all of us here, and I would suspect that if this application is successful that I think everybody, including the panel and all the other presenters that have been here before you will agree in their hearts that we all have a collective responsibility to find positive ways to address the myriad of issues impacting our people.

12049 Thank you very much for hearing my words.

12050 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

12051 Commissioner Cardozo.

12052 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you, Madam Chair and thank you Mr. Clark for being here and your presentation.

12053 I had the chance to visit your Web site earlier this week which provided me some information on your organization and really helped me think about the questions I would like to ask you.

12054 What are some of the programs you would want to see that wold be of particular interest? Is it music? Is it talk about things?

12055 MR. CLARK: I think in our population, because we are so young, we have such a young thriving population, the message really has to be -- a good portion of the message has to be targeted to the young people. I see young people being actively involved in the planning and a lot of them are involved, they are not listening to Mozart, although I encourage them to. They are listening to hip hop and rap and all that type of stuff. I see a big part of that.

12056 I also see a vehicle for exchanging ideas and having discussions. It would be absolutely wonderful to have talk shows like CKNW has where they have guest speakers coming in and you have that two-way dialogue and the exchange of ideas between people. I see that as really important.

12057 I also see perhaps one of the most critical issues before our people -- we have so many, but this one is very important -- is the near extinction of our languages. We have 28 distinct languages here in British Columbia. There are 52 in the country, but 28 here, and unfortunately the federal government has only allocated $300,000 provincially for those 28 languages to survive and I see language as being a very significant part of programming for the station as well.

12058 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: You mentioned there are 60,000 aboriginal people in the province. How many would be urban?

12059 MR. CLARK: No, a new census that is coming out. We have over 200,000 aboriginal people in the lower mainland. We estimate up to 60,000 aboriginal people and --

12060 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So the 200,000 is what?

12061 MR. CLARK: Just over 200,000 aboriginal people in the Province of B.C.

12062 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: In the province, okay.

12063 MR. CLARK: In the lower mainland, 60,000.

12064 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay, 60,000 in the lower mainland.

12065 MR. CLARK: Yes.

12066 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And of the 200,000, how many are urban including Vancouver?

12067 MR. CLARK: Eighty per cent of that population.

12068 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So 80 per cent of the aboriginal population is urban.

12069 MR. CLARK: Are living in off reserve communities.

12070 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: A couple of issues come to mind in recent months: the Nisga'a Land Claim Agreement and the Musqueam land issue in the Vancouver area in recent months.

12071 Is it your sense that they were areas where an aboriginal perspective was aired in a fair manner?

12072 MR. CLARK: Those are highly complex issues and it's my job to be on top of those issues and know those issues and both on the Nisga'a Agreement there was a lot of misinformation that was put out there and the same thing with the Musqueam and the same thing right now with treaty process. We really don't have a vehicle to ensure that the diverse aboriginal perspectives are being shared to the general population and even our own people.

12073 So to --

12074 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Are there any outlets currently that stand out as you would call more fair than others?

12075 MR. CLARK: We have APTN Television now that is starting to come out and which is excellent for the TV medium. As far as radio is concerned, there is a co-op in -- I don't know if you are familiar with the co-op.

12076 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Yes.

12077 MR. CLARK: I am sure you have all been up there, but there is a small section of time there. So really the answer is outside the co-op, no, I don't know of any other venues for our words and voices to get out.

12078 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Now you represent communities throughout the province, and you are aware of Northern Native Broadcasting.

12079 MR. CLARK: Yes.

12080 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Do you have any thoughts -- they are not in favour of this particular application.

12081 MR. CLARK: Yes.

12082 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: What are your thoughts on that?

12083 MR. CLARK: Well, again you have to look at the diversity of our people and the regions of this province and the Northern Native Broadcasting is representing the northern issues, which are very distinct to Vancouver issues, and my hope is that if we are successful here with this application that I am sure that Northern Native Broadcasting would partner with us, but they just don't have the capacity and they don't have actually the connections in the community and that's why I was very honoured sit here before you with the people here because we have such a rich diverse group here representing every sector of our community for the lower mainland.

12084 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Do you see a time, from what you are saying then -- let me ask you rather than make my conclusions.

12085 Do you see a time when Northern Native Broadcasting and AVR could be sharing programming?

12086 MR. CLARK: I would see I guess my sense of it would be that Northern Native Broadcasting would have to work with AVR and vice versa, AVR would have to work with Northern Native Broadcasting.

12087 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And are you in a position to facilitate that?

12088 MR. CLARK: As a --

12089 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Are you sort of a third party provincial organization that can --

12090 MR. CLARK: We are a provincial aboriginal advocacy organization and we partner with well over right now 200 organizations in the Province of B.C., non-profit societies and, yes, we would be able to help facilitate a dialogue.

--- Pause / Pause

12091 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I had a bunch of questions for you and as you spoke there were a few more that came to mind so I am just checking my notes to make sure that I have them all.

12092 My last question is the issue of the ticking time bomb that you mentioned in aboriginal youth.

12093 Can you draw for me a clear line between the problem of the ticking time bomb and what the radio station can do?

12094 MR. CLARK: Okay. As I said, 60 per cent of our population is under the age of 25 and it's growing. The urban off reserve population has been locked into an abyss between the federal and provincial government. Both those governments have stated that it's not their responsibility to address off reserve peoples' needs, housing, education, et cetera, right down the whole line and this has been going on regardless of the party.

12095 As a result of the dire poverty issues in our communities, we are sitting on a situation where we could have what happened in Winnipeg.

12096 One of the key things that I see that a radio station can do is it can sensitize Canadians to the political reality of urban off reserve aboriginal people to just get everybody to realize that if we are a country based on generosity and support, then regardless of what government is in, regardless of whether it's federal, provincial or even municipal, that we all have a responsibility to work towards it, and I see a radio station as one significant pillar in creating knowledge and sharing knowledge between mainstream population, aboriginal and government levels and I also see it as a very important vehicle for young people to get involved and share their ideas and their success stories with other young people in the lower mainland and eventually I would hope to see it across the country.

12097 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Those are my questions. Thanks very much, Mr. Clark.

12098 Thanks, Madam Chair.

12099 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Commissioner Cardozo. Commissioner Cram I believe has a question.

12100 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you, Mr. Clark. You were talking about Winnipeg which of course is near my home, and NCI, Native Communications has been there for I think coming on two years, if not longer, two and half years.

12101 MR. CLARK: Yes.

12102 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Are you aware of whether or not they have had any impact on native issues and especially the youth in Winnipeg?

12103 MR. CLARK: No, not specifically to that particular station. I do know that the politics in Winnipeg is significantly different than it is in Vancouver and I can't speak to that particular licence specifically.

12104 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you.

12105 THE CHAIRPERSON: I have one question.

12106 MR. CLARK: Yes.

12107 THE CHAIRPERSON: When you talk about the lower mainland -- I am just wondering if you can help. I live here but my colleagues don't and we have a lot talk about it.

12108 Can you give me the geographic --

12109 MR. CLARK: What is the GVRD?

12110 THE CHAIRPERSON: Is that what you mean?

12111 MR. CLARK: Yes, Greater Vancouver Regional District, and it's made up of, I think, 22 or 26 municipalities.

12112 THE CHAIRPERSON: As long as you meant the GVRD and not beyond that.

12113 MR. CLARK: Yes.

12114 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

12115 Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr. Clark.

12116 MR. CLARK: Thank you.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

12117 MS WARD: (Native language spoken) et bonjour.

12118 Firstly, I would like to acknowledge and thank Chief Bill Williams and the Cosalish people for allowing us to work here in their traditional territory and for allowing us to speak today.

12119 Secondly, I would like to tell you that I am not Larry Odegard. I am Joy Ward and you might remember me from my presentation last week.

12120 I come to you today wearing three hats. I come to you because I do work for the Health Association of British Columbia and the CEO is Larry Odegard, but I have been delegated the duty to speak on behalf of the Health Association who employs and Advisory Council called the First Peoples' Health Council which is made up of a number of provincial aboriginal health organization leaders from all over the province.

12121 I also come to you as an aboriginal woman. I am Cree, I am Haida and I am French. So I have a leg in both the native and the non-native world. When I was five, I was fostered and adopted and raised by non-native people and in fact I was born right here in Vancouver.

12122 I also wear a third hat and that is I am a child and youth fatality investigator for the Attorney General's Children Commission. In that capacity over the last three years I have had the opportunity to review the tragic deaths of many children in this province. The majority of whom I reviewed were aboriginal children. Those deaths involved suicides, homicides, motor vehicle accidents many of which were drug and alcohol related and, of course, sudden infant death syndrome and for aboriginal children in this province it's six times higher than non-native babies.

12123 I was once told by an elder to speak from the heart, to put my pen and paper down and speak from the heart and we are traditionally an oral society. So I apologize you don't have a prepared script from me today. I do have a few scribbled notes.

12124 If you are not already aware, please let me tell you that our health here in Vancouver, here in this Province of British Columbia and here in this country for our First Peoples is the worst in the country. Those statistics and that allegation is in fact supported by factual statistics and our provincial health officer who is Dr. Perry Kendall, with whom we work very closely in the Health Association, supports that with an annual report and in fact is in the process of preparing an aboriginal-specific health report for this province.

12125 But last year in 1999 of all his health goals he included one for aboriginal health and he said that it needs to be improved.

12126 Unfortunately he wasn't able to offer a strategy and with all due respect to Dr. Kendall I have to give him credit for saying that he is allowing the First Peoples of this province to come up with that strategy. But he does emphasize that our health is the worst and that it does need to be improved.

12127 Now why do I come to you, the CRTC, taking about health? Because I believe a radio station is one way to help improve it, but I also need to stress that it's not enough to just come here and give you facts and statistics and quote that our health is bad and we need to do something about it.

12128 That story needs to be contextualized. It needs to be supported with the background on how we got to where we are and why our health is so bad today and we need to understand how we got there. How do we do that? Well, one way is to talk about it. Traditionally because we are an oral society, we tell our stories and today in the year 2000 the moccasin telegraph and our smoke signals are not enough. They do work and they are always our primary source of communication, but we do need more and there are in excess of 196 registered bands, not to mention the non-status and the Métis and Inuit people in this province and we don't have a radio station here in Vancouver to support our unique voice.

12129 Some of the issues that affect the health of our people have already been stated, but let me stress them again -- diabetes, HIV and AIDS, SIDS, also known as sudden infant death syndrome, drug and alcohol issues. How can we fix this? We need to talk about, as I said, how we got there. We need to address the issues of colonialism, residential schools, and the loss of our culture.

12130 We can do this through open and improved lines of communication and we can do this through an aboriginal radio station starting right here in Vancouver. This offers a connection not only between our First Peoples but our non-First Peoples. It offers a connection and a bridge, as I spoke of last week, a necessary bridge between aboriginal communities and the health authorities, and also our rural and urban people.

12131 It provides for our unique voices to be heard and it allows a voice for our people who are incarcerated in the prisons and it's a tragic fact that there are many of our people in prison. But they have access to radios too.

12132 Some of the barriers that we would like to conquer can be accomplished by education, by sharing information and by an increased awareness of the factors still impacting not only our health but our wellness and this includes our mental health. It would be good if we had an aboriginal radio station to have a regular segment on First Peoples' health matters.

12133 There are some quotes from the Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples and I am aware of the time, but I would like to quote one that pertains specifically to aboriginal women. It's by Eleanor Huff(ph) from the Quebec Native Women's Association and she says:

"Although their roles in formal and informal institutions are crucial to the day to day survival of urban aboriginal people, the needs of urban aboriginal women are virtually invisible and the reality of their lives often remain unrecognized and invalidated. In their submissions to Commissioners..."

12134 The RCAP Commissioners:

"... they called for their presence to be recognized and their needs acknowledged. We urge the Commission..."

12135 And these words could apply to this Commission:

"... to take into account in its proceedings the specific needs of aboriginal women and their families in the urban setting. More than others we are often ill-equipped and the victims of segregation and discrimination". (As read)

12136 Last but not least, I would like to tell you a quote from the Family Violence Centre right here at the Native Education Centre, and I don't have the words in front of me but I do remember the effect. They talk about in this world of push and shove how we non-native people sometimes rely upon Maslove's hierarchy of needs which is a vertical system. But we as First Peoples have always known that we walk in circles and that we know where healing is concerned we walk in circles because healing has no beginning and no end.

12137 And I will close now by saying hawa(ph), which is Haida for thank you et merci.

12138 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Are you sure I can't call you Mr. Odegard now?

12139 I wonder if you could just tell us a little bit more about both the Health Association and the First Peoples' Health Council and what kind of work you are doing in this regard?

12140 MS WARD: The Health Association of British Columbia thrives on membership dues that are paid primarily by the health authorities throughout this province.

12141 Those health authorities would include the bigger players like the regional health boards such as Vancouver-Richmond Health Board and Capital in Victoria, and the smaller organizations such as the community health councils and then community health societies. Within the Health Association of B.C., the CEOs met almost two years ago and decided, "Yes, we do need to improve aboriginal health, but we don't know how to do this" and called upon the advice and expertise of some people in the Ministry of Health, ie. specifically the Aboriginal Health Division.

12142 They suggested to the Health Association that they form an advisory council and call it the First Peoples' Health Council and the First Peoples' Health Council suggested to the Health Association that the first thing they needed to do was employ someone who was aboriginal, hence that's how I came to be there.

12143 The First Peoples' Health Council is made up of a number of representatives from aboriginal health organizations all throughout the province, including aboriginal health governors who sit on the board of directors with the health boards, Métis organizations, urban/rural status and non-status representatives such as the Chiefs Health Committee, the B.C. Union of Indian Chiefs, the Métis Provincial Council.

12144 We have had Scott Clark from the UNN and a representative from the B.C. Association of

Friendship Centres sit at our table, and so on.

12145 THE CHAIRPERSON: Can you tell me a bit about what you do?

12146 MS WARD: Well, the Health Association of B.C. is known as a tough leader and we have been instructed by our members to help stir the ship not row it. So we are a thought leader, we are a voice, we are an advocate and we monitor the actions of the health authorities.

12147 We take advice from our First Peoples throughout this conference and we present that in the form of written documents such as -- the thought escapes me right now, I am asked to write them all the time.

12148 Anyway, we publish public articles that pertain to the health of First Peoples and issues that are related to them.

12149 THE CHAIRPERSON: So it would be more in terms of directing then where the needs are and specific manners of dealing with health issues in the aboriginal communities. Is that --

12150 MS WARD: Yes.

12151 THE CHAIRPERSON: You don't deliver programs, I guess is my question.

12152 MS WARD: No, we are not a service delivery. We do publish -- sorry, what is called position statements and dialogues and we invite feedback from both the health authorities and most certainly representatives of First Peoples throughout this province.

12153 We with the First Peoples' Health Council meet on a regular basis five times a year and, as I said, they are brought in from all over the province and we spend one whole day with a full agenda talking about the priority issues. With that then we make a motion to the board of the Health Association of B.C. and they agree or disagree to publish throughout the province through these written documents.

12154 So we advocate not only to the Ministry of Health and other entities in the provincial government, but we have been known to advocate to the federal government as well.

12155 THE CHAIRPERSON: Are you finding it to be an effective mechanism or organization? Are you satisfied with its effectiveness?

12156 MS WARD: Yes. I have to admit that it's a slow and laborious and sometimes frustrating process, but a necessary one. And do I think it's effective? Yes, or I personally wouldn't be here.

12157 THE CHAIRPERSON: I guess it was in the sense of it's something that started and it's new, are you excited by the direction it's going and how it's working, and that kind of thing.

12158 MS WARD: Yes, very much so, and when I went to our CEO, Larry Odegard and said, "We have an opportunity to support this licence for an aboriginal radio station and I know that you might not see the connection between that and health, so here let me tell you real fast", there was no hesitation on his part to say, "Well, why wouldn't we". Yes, I am excited.

12159 THE CHAIRPERSON: Great.

12160 One other question. I know you have talked about linking to see regularly scheduled airtimes allocated to the dedication of First Peoples' health matters and I am wondering if you have had those discussions and if there had been any results of that?

12161 MS WARD: Well, traditionally we would consult with our people and that would be probably the representatives of the First Peoples' Health Council who would again consult with their members of the community to identify specifically what they would like to see discussed, but the overall consensus is that would be a good thing to have that venue on a radio station to share and inform.

12162 THE CHAIRPERSON: And with AVR, have you had those discussions?

12163 MS WARD: Yes. They have been supportive.

12164 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Ms Ward. Do we have any other -- no?

12165 Thank you very much.

12166 MS WARD: Thank you.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

12167 MR. STEVENSON: I have some copies.

--- Pause / Pause

12168 MR. STEVENSON: (Native language spoken). Bonjour, messieurs, dames and good morning.

12169 Thank you for giving me the opportunity to appear before this hearing.

12170 In the tradition of my people I would like to acknowledge and thank the Cosalish Peoples for allowing us to meet in their traditional territory.

12171 My name is Jean-Paul Stevenson. I am the elected leader of the Métis community with over 700 active members in the lower mainland. I greeted you today in our traditional languages and I don't speak any of them very well.

12172 I am also the Chief Executive Officer of a mineral exploration company that is developing a copper/gold porphyry deposit in north central British Columbia within the traditional territory of the Lake Babine Nation.

12173 I donate office space and my time to serve my community so in the traditional Métis way I have a foot in two camps. I have served on the Premier's Committee for Mining Initiatives and I am the Vice-Chair of Vancouver City's Council's Special Advisory Committee for Cultural Communities and I have on the British Columbia Multiculturalism Advisory Council where I learned quickly about the lack of sensitivity on important issues to our people and the need to get our story to mainstream Canada.

12174 What you have before you is a Métis social activist who happens to be a successful businessman.

12175 You may be saying to yourself, "I thought the Métis were all on the prairies" -- I hear this all the time. Well, there are 30,000 of us in B.C. and in the 1996 census over 6,000 identified as Métis in the lower mainland. If we had a national radio station you, the City of Vancouver and all of Canada would know we existed. It is for this community and the urban aboriginal community on a whole that I am supporting the Aboriginal Voices Radio proposal for a service in Vancouver.

12176 The soul of Canada has been the CBC, a broadcast service that ties mainstream Canada together from coast to coast to coast. The time is now for aboriginal peoples to have their own easily accessible radio service as well. This will benefit our people and the people of Canada.

12177 The aboriginal people of Canada have a long and diverse cultural history in this land we now call Canada. We are a primary force in the fabric of Canadian culture that is historically underrepresented. To understand the cultural fabric of Canada, people need not only be educated in aboriginal history, but to the powerful role that we as aboriginal people will be playing in the future of Canada.

12178 The depth of aboriginal culture, including music, arts and insights continues to set the tone of a large per cent of not only aboriginal culture but also mainstream culture, politics and social dynamics.

12179 The Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples recommended that the CRTC:

"... include in licence conditions for public and commercial broadcasters in regions with significant aboriginal population concentrations requirements for fair representation and distribution of aboriginal programming, including aboriginal language requirements".

12180 The Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples also recommended the CRTC be mandated to establish:

"... provisions for joint ventures as part of licensing conditions to ensure a stable financial base for the production and distribution of aboriginal broadcast media products, particularly in southern Canada".

12181 Canada's Broadcast Act states that radio must reflect in its programming and employment opportunities the special place of aboriginal peoples.

12182 Obviously, the submission before you fulfils these mandates and more. You are probably more aware than I of the legal, cultural and historical need for such a service.

12183 So I am going to speak from my own heart. I am a recovering addict/alcoholic and I am the President of an aboriginal society that manages a support house for aboriginal men recovering from additions.

12184 In my service to my brothers, I have the opportunity to arrange schooling and job training. I also research cultural information to help our men recover their pride and their place in our society. The majority of our people cannot be reached through mainstream media. APTN, the Aboriginal Peoples Television Network, requires access to cable TV and newspapers are not often seen by those most in need.

12185 With no effective voice across Canada Métis people and all aboriginal people are feeling alone in their struggle to regain their sobriety, pride and self-respect.

12186 The establishment of an aboriginal radio station will fill this need. At no cost to our listeners a national radio station will unite our brothers and sisters in a way not possible today.

12187 In the name of the Métis in this city and my brothers and sisters in recovery, I ask that you help us rebuild our nation. I ask that you approve this application.

12188 All my relations.

12189 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Stevenson.

12190 Commissioner Cardozo.

12191 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you, Mr. Stevenson and seeing that I haven't had the benefit of education about the Métis in B.C., I wonder if you could tell us a little more about the history of the Métis people in this province and in this region.

12192 MR. STEVENSON: In the province as a whole, the Métis have communities in northeastern British Columbia that were established before the time of Treaty 8. A number of them moved up into northeastern British Columbia during the Métis defence of homelands, the Battle of Batoche, the Riel -- what is known as mainstream Canada Riel's rebellion. The Métis were the guides and the leaders of the traders that came to this province -- Maillardville, Fort Langley. You will see in all those graveyards Métis names.

12193 We were the guides, the trappers, the traders. Leaving from Quebec, the Métis settled Kansas City. We have large communities in Thunder Bay. We are not just from the Prairies. The actual culture developed as a whole perhaps in the Red River Settlement, but the Métis are from right across Canada and we were the first travellers into this province.

12194 I have had the honour and privilege to meet an elder who can remember his mother and grandmother making sashes for the Métis traders that came with Simon Fraser with the Carrier/Sekani territory.

12195 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Making sashes here.

12196 MR. STEVENSON: They were making sashes in what was then Tachiat(ph).

12197 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And today where do most Métis people live?

12198 MR. STEVENSON: Métis are primarily urban aboriginals. We have a large community here in Vancouver in the lower mainland, a very large community in Prince George, Dawson Creek, Chetwind. We are throughout -- we are in every city of the province. There are 1,000 active Métis in the Victoria-Southern Vancouver Island area.

12199 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And what would you see as a programming that would be of most interest? The kinds of programs you would like to see on AVR -- in general and also for recovering addicts that you talked about at the end of your presentation.

12200 MR. STEVENSON: I think the prime concern we have -- and as a Métis leader I publish at my own expense a monthly newsletter trying to reach people -- we have absolutely no way to reach our community. We have people phoning us that have seen adoption papers for the first time and they finally find us and they are Métis and how do you join, what do they do?

12201 So the Aboriginal Voices Radio would give a source of information where people could realize they are not alone in this city, that there are Métis here, there are other aboriginal organizations.

12202 Scott is more of a political activist. I lean on him for a lot of information. I had no idea until I got a brochure in the mail that the UNN had a GED program. I now have two of our fellows from our recovery house taking that program. We don't have that communication.

12203 What I see Aboriginal Voices Radio doing is getting the word to our community what is where so that we can begin to road to recovery.

12204 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thanks very much, Mr. Stevenson. It was very helpful.

12205 Thanks, Madam Chair.

12206 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Commissioner.

12207 Next.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

12208 MR. FISHER: Good morning.

12209 I am a bit old school. Like my predecessors here I generally try and speak from the heart and address the issues in that fashion, but Kennedy(ph) suggested that I put my thoughts in paper so that it would go in the record and you could review it later on and think what you would.

12210 So I am going to go at this from the paper that I have generated and then of course I will answer questions, but I might have other thoughts that I would like to continue with.

12211 THE CHAIRPERSON: Whatever you say is on the record.

12212 MR. FISHER: Excellent, I appreciate it.

12213 Greetings and regards to the Commission and all the presently functioning broadcast interests in attendance here.

12214 If I could directly introduce myself. Let me tell you my name is Lenny Fisher. Over the previous decade, my work has been involved in the technical production in the motion picture industry in Vancouver here for which I trained at a local community college also here in Vancouver.

12215 The program I attended was intended to provide an overview of the design, process, function and operation of the present day communications industry. It served to introduce the relevant employment opportunities that exist as we examined film, television, photo journalism, newsprint and naturally radio.

12216 That ten-month training period, followed with a brief unpaid practicum on a feature film developed into a decade of unprecedented employment and career advancement opportunities here in what is often times referred to as Brollywood(ph) or Hollywood North.

12217 Something truly significant has taken place over those past ten years, something we know now can be the great equalizer when it comes to function meeting form and what I am referring to is digital technology.

12218 We had only a glimpse of the potential during our training because our program was fast-tracked and it was the fast-track equivalent of a two-year program that the college offered and therefore our access to what I like to refer to as the "machinery" was limited.

12219 Three years ago, I underwent further training at an audio engineering training facility with an eye to developing a better awareness of digital audio. While this grounded by knowledge of the phenomenon of sound -- of which I would like to do a demonstration later -- and more comprehensively aspects of practical production, again the nature of the training facility and the access to the machinery was limited.

12220 Two years ago, having decided with an informed opinion that the mythical process of convergence is more atmosphere than a destination, I underwrote $50,000 of digital audio recording equipment and set about to develop my company, Reztown Lighting and Sound.

12221 What was laid out in the initial business plan is partly responsible for my appearance here before you today. The other reason is you need me to be here.

12222 Please do not mistake my meaning because it's far from the catbird seat of opportunity here. When I envisioned myself working in the communications media it was always with a sense of obligation and that is to be a public spokesperson or otherwise a purveyor of credible information is truly a privilege. In Sto:lo culture practice here in lower mainland and Fraser Valley where I was raised, our traditional manner of passing information, either through generations or perhaps about significant events in a region was through the perception and recollection of a witness.

12223 This witness would be one who had personally observed an event as it unfolded and was recognized by those responsible for convening the gathering to be the eyes and ears. A witness would then become a source of credible reference about this particular activity or event and would be capable through intelligence, understanding and emotional perception to recount the event in detail and feeling. In this fashion we learned to speak for ourselves but to never put words in other people's mouths.

12224 When I say convergence is more atmosphere than destination, what I mean is to identify the threshold of sociological transition we have arrived upon and to dimentionalize the space, the enormous inner space understand therefore one's inner peace following a leap of faith. We are there, you are here.

12225 Presently all together, we from First Nations to first generation Canadians need clarity. We need understanding, we need awareness, we need dialogue to define compatible arrangements and we need compassionate involvement.

12226 Reztown was established through my commitment to participate in meaningful change. Proactivity is neither reactionary nor revolutionary. It's simply necessary. That is what brings me to the hearing now.

12227 At the turn of the century, before the Canadian Radio and Telecommunications Commission, idling were the turnkey mobile digital recording studio along with the skills to operate it to address the need for service, access and support of the Aboriginal Voices Radio Network.

12228 And for this Committee, my intention is to illustrate the limitless possibilities and the millions in potential this network withholds in the coming decade alone. An example. Upon invitation today, Reztown would be capable of revitalizing and digitizing the analog recording archives of many First Nations cultural libraries thereby establishing a net raw material for languages programs to support the Aboriginal Voices mandate and reintroduce the ancestral voices of those communities to the subsequent generations.

12229 And that is what we are prepared to do is produce and engineer specialty programming like live events that may replay as "taped live at" performances of emerging musical artists or community events themselves.

12230 Reztown would also be available to produce on-location public forums, meetings, or with appropriate support, talk shows hosted by First Nations institutes or administrative bodies.

12231 If it has anything to do with forward-thinking, proactive problem-solving, solutions-oriented, information-generating activities, Reztown is ready, willing and able. We are prepared to develop training alongside production as the demand requires because we believe there is value in culture beyond what is being experienced presently.

12232 Reztown believes what is necessary is for interpreters of First Nations culture to be heard in context, not continually in response.

12233 Reztown is a concept rooted in a reality that would address the needs for criminal rehabilitation. We could produce a program for the disproportionate number of incarcerated First Nations peoples. Think along the lines of South Africa's Truth and Reconciliation Commission or Tribunal, a remand vision that the compelling nature of recidivism itself to be arrested by former criminals acknowledging and apologizing for their transgressions and putting forth the message of a better way.

12234 Alongside all the potentially informative and enlightening programming developed elsewhere amongst the network infrastructure, Reztown programs would strive to be a consistent, credible reference on the AVR network for other opinions on issues facing the native nations and become a wellspring of information and details otherwise overlooked.

12235 What I had in mind when submitting my letter of intervention on behalf of Aboriginal Voices Radio Network was to provide the Committee in flesh and bone and face evidence that what this application represents is not the Pollyanna daydream of some left-over social theorist, but the necessary step towards a new equilibrium we can all recognize the need for.

12236 Looking out over the ground Reztown has covered to be here, I would like to say I have been waiting for you, but given the current circumstances I feel overdue. As gatekeepers to the collective subconscious, I invite you to step forward alongside with the full understanding that we have solutions at hand to overcome barriers of ignorance and access.

12237 We have the will and untapped desire gently percolating into maturity and motivation. We withhold the capacity to become extraordinary global villages by remaining barefoot historians, barefoot historians who tend their own needs, express their own ideas, determine their own destiny, sing their own songs and by their own ability and freedom to communicate can create allegiance where there has only ever been adversity.

12238 Such is the power of understanding so is the potential of an Aboriginal Voices Radio Network.

12239 I thank you for your time and consideration.

12240 The stuff I would like to ad lib with at this point -- and I won't go too far, but some of the points that came to mind were that we do have to come to terms with where we are and how we got here, and I think a lot of the problem with mainstream communications is they do come just simply for responses and that's not the answer.

12241 Another thing is that radio is a very intimate medium. I would like to make a demonstration -- I could say this and I can directly amend something emotionally in you because well, I am whispering --

--- Laughter / Rires

12242 MR. FISHER: but this is only part of the audio phenomenon and ability of radio.

12243 The other thing is volume. I can humanize myself by making myself larger than life. I don't know if you would want that, but that's possible.

12244 Essentially the most important thing is that it is a personal medium.

12245 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

12246 Commissioner Cardozo.

12247 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you, Madam Chair.

12248 You may not be a Pollyanna social theorist --

--- Laughter / Rires

12249 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: -- but you certainly are a visionary social theorist and it's a good thing that Madam Chair pointed out that your comments are on the record because some of the words you mentioned I am going to have to look up in my dictionary to fully grasp the meaning of what you have said today. But thank you very much for that.

12250 I just have a couple of questions. What I understand from your written submission and what you said today is you talked about in your written letter about a business plan and an initiative that you were planning. Today you talked about revitalizing and digitizing material.

12251 Do I gather that what you will be is part of the technical and technological infrastructure that will be available to AVR?

12252 MR. FISHER: Absolutely, and I consider myself somewhat like an independent producer who happens to be an engineer. It's just cost- effective. I would look to supporting the network through freelance or contracted work or subsequently be employed by groups like the United Native Nations to go through archival material that would make compound radio.

12253 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you.

12254 In the film production work that you have done, have you had a lot of experience in aboriginal themes or stories?

12255 MR. FISHER: Unfortunately, I work in the mainstream. I work for large international associations of theatrical and studio employees technical unions and as we know there is really not much call for -- well, once every generation or so we get something like Dances With Wolves or Smoke Signals -- Smoke Signals is different. It's an aboriginal initiative so it's not the same.

12256 But no, there is not much in that direction. But when it does pop up, it is simply a stereotypical, one-dimensional representation backdrop character to drive forward the plot of the bulletproof white guy.

--- Laughter / Rires

12257 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: With or without a black jacket?

12258 MR. FISHER: They are bulletproof, it doesn't matter.

12259 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So I take it that became the conquest of your yet to be --

12260 MR. FISHER: Well, you know, geez I am an old school hip hop fan too. I grew with an emergence of the hip hop scene and Gil Scott-Heron came up with the phrase "The revolution will not be televised" and I think that speaks for itself.

12261 I think APTN is a progressive and positive attractive initiative, but the cost of creating material for television is prohibitive. Even still in the digital transition state that we are in, it's still you need a lot more manpower, a little more money and radio is not that way.

12262 I could do a program pretty much by myself. I would like to have support and definitely need support --

--- Laughter / Rires

12263 MR. FISHER: -- but I could pretty much pull it together and produce it.

12264 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: What are the kinds of programs do you anticipate being able to do for AVR?

12265 MR. FISHER: Well, off the top of my head, I would like to focus on some of the -- I have been listening to a lot of CBC during the election just trying to gather information from the sources that are presenting it.

12266 I would definitely focus on some kind of contemporary talk or issues, news magazine issues and really go after different voices, different opinions, different everything because the monopoly that Reizmer(ph) and all these other presentors have on the listening audiences is just a stronghold and they are just driving home opinions, they are hitting all the hot button issues and they are appealing to the emotional, for a lack of a better word right now, idiots.

12267 And they respond and they get up on the -- they get themselves broadcast and their spew forth this vitriol and it just gets aggravating and frustrating.

12268 So the short answer is talk show stuff. I would definitely have a youth-oriented program that would be set level by an audition process that you had to come with the goods. You couldn't just get on the radio and just spew your own vitriol. You would have to come prepared, you would have to come practised, you would have to come auditioned and from that point I think the quality calibre and the interest would be compelling enough to make it good local radio and very interesting national radio and it's here amongst us. There is no question that with a population base of such large numbers under the age of 30, well it's our Woodstock, it's our new wave era, it's our punk era, it's our hip hop era. They are out there. They are feeding from all those previous genres, but they are going to develop and speak their own mind and have their own insights.

12269 So I'm here as a -- I have been waiting for them too. I am waiting to produce and support them.

12270 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you. Thanks very much.

12271 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Fisher.

12272 MR. FISHER: Thank you.

12273 THE CHAIRPERSON: Onwards.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

12274 MS TARA WILLARD: Madam Chair, Commission members, broadcasters and members of the public.

12275 We speak to you today acknowledging that we are here on Cosalish territory. My name is Tara Willard.

12276 MS TANYA WILLARD: I am Tanya Willard.

12277 MS TARA WILLARD: And we are here as emissaries of Chief Arthur Manuel of Neskainlith, a Secwepemc community close to the Se'shalt Lakes in the south central interior of British Columbia. My sister and I are both band members of Neskainlith.

12278 For myself. I am a student. I live here in Vancouver. I go to the University of British Columbia and I have worked basically for the last four years during my summers with Chief Manuel.

12279 I work at a youth resource centre. I am also active with aboriginal media. I have a show once a month with Co-Op Radio and I also work with Red Wire, the urban native youth magazine. I am based here in Vancouver as well.

12280 So we are here representing Chief Art Manuel in the Interior Alliance. Chief Art Manuel is the Chairperson of the Shuswap Nation Tribal Council as well as the Interior Alliance. Now the Interior Alliance includes five interior nations, including the Okanagan, the Nicomen, the Stapian(ph), Skawahlook and the southern Carrier, whose traditional territories cover one-third of the province of British Columbia.

12281 The peoples of the Interior Alliance have never seeded, released or surrendered their land which they hold aboriginal title.

12282 Chief Manuel also co-chairs the Assembly of First Nations Delgamuuk Implementation Strategic Committee, or DISC for short, fighting for the recognition of aboriginal title and rights on a national basis.

12283 One important part of the six-point DISC strategy to implement aboriginal title is communication and community participation. We understand that it's essential to get indigenous communities involved in the exercise of aboriginal title and also to inform the non-native community about the importance of our traditional territories to our peoples.

12284 Aboriginal Voices Radio station would not only invite the active participation of aboriginal communities, it would also enable them to pass their own information and points of view onto mainstream society.

12285 A national radio network would help us develop a broader perspective on different issues of concern to indigenous peoples. In the case of the Interior Alliance and DISC, our main focus is aboriginal title. We work together with indigenous peoples all across Canada in defence of our traditional territories and join in the struggle of changing the extinguishment policy of the federal government.

12286 Through a national aboriginal radio network, we could show the national dimension, get positive implications of the Delgamuuk process to Canadian society.

12287 As indigenous peoples we have maintained our inherent rights to self-determination and the land. Still for the past centuries, we have been mainly excluded from mainstream society and the economy. This includes the communications branch.

12288 We have a right to radio and to do it in a way that is a meaningful change.

12289 MS TANYA WILLARD: As young indigenous persons living in the city, we deserve and we want better access to communications. The growth of our native populations indicates that the young people are in need of ways to communicate our diversified talents.

12290 We need the infrastructure and communication links to share our voices with other urban and rural native communities as well as the rest of Canada.

12291 Aboriginal radio would link urban native use more to our communities and also enable us to have our own creative input in developing new expressions of indigenous culture.

12292 We have a responsibility to our communities to ensure that the next generations, our children and grandchildren, will grow up in an environment that fosters public education about the issues that concern our people.

12293 One important aspect in the maintenance of our cultures is the perpetuation of our languages and the sharing of our experiences in order to foster relationships with each other and the non-aboriginal community.

12294 I just wanted to speak a little bit about my experience with aboriginal media and I think we have talked a little about here concentrating on the youth and how this can be a positive step towards creating some social change and dealing with some of the social issues that youth are dealing with today.

12295 Just to illustrate that, I want to just talk a little bit about a personal experience. I attended a program at the Gulf Islands Film and Television School where it was a group of native youth that came together to produce videos that came out of their own stories, their own voices, their own experiences. It was a six-day intensive course and every night we held talking circles and we shared our experiences and how the day was and how the process was.

12296 By the end of it there was just an amazing difference. Young people had come and the difference was that somebody had taken the time and they felt like their stories were important. All of a sudden it took it out of the dimension of just them in an isolated community or in an isolated social network talking about their issues to feeling pride in something they did and a mastery because we actually were producing the videos as well.

12297 I think that with AVR the potential is really great for youth to both be involved and to benefit from having that access point and a feeling of pride and feeling a connection to their cultures and educating themselves about other native cultures as well.

12298 So I just wanted to kind of illustrate a bit of personal experience and how that link is actually facilitated in a real way.

12299 I also just want to say that I think there is, to reiterate, there is a real potential here. We are talking about something that is really beautiful which is the ability to have our stories, our voices, our histories and wisdom heard by all our communities and all the nations and all the diverse populations here in Canada.

12300 And so I am just going to continue a bit more with the script. I just thought I would add that in.

12301 So Chief Manuel supports this important initiative and by sending us as his representatives he also expresses that it is important to link together the experiences and needs of indigenous peoples living in cities and on the reserves on a national level, especially if you take into account that the whole of British Columbia and Canada is the traditional territory of indigenous peoples to which we collectively hold aboriginal title.

12302 Aboriginal title in a broader sense does not only cover our right to land. It also encompasses our right to express our own culture and the right to self-determination.

12303 The creation of a national aboriginal radio service is a step in the right direction.

12304 Thank you.

12305 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Miss Manuel and Miss Manuel.

12306 MS TANYA WILLARD: We are not Manuels. Willard.

12307 THE CHAIRPERSON: Oh, I am sorry.

12308 MS TANYA WILLARD: That's okay.

12309 THE CHAIRPERSON: There have been so many names in the last two weeks.

12310 Commissioner Cardozo.

12311 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you both for coming here.

12312 The Interior Alliance covers regions in the interior not Vancouver. Is that right?

12313 MS TANYA WILLARD: Yes.

12314 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: This station, or this application is for a station in Vancouver. Do either of you live in Vancouver?

12315 MS TANYA WILLARD: Yes, both of us are based in Vancouver and I think just to address what Scott was saying about 80 per cent of aboriginal populations living off reserve, there is a significant amount of people from the interior who actually are coming to Vancouver because of better economic opportunity, because of education, coming to Vancouver to come to other post-secondary institutions and for a lot of reasons, but there is a significant base of people from all of those nations here in Vancouver and lower mainland.

12316 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: People from there living here.

12317 Let me ask you about people who do live there, and Chief Manuel who I take it lives -- does he live in Kelowna?

12318 MS TANYA WILLARD: Kamloops.

12319 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Kamloops, okay.

12320 What would the importance of a station in Vancouver for somebody living in Kamloops be?

12321 MS TANYA WILLARD: I think that with the AVR it could be that -- it would be they would be based in the lower mainland, but I think that obviously the issues are connected and that there would be space for consideration of issues going on in the interior.

12322 Definitely the Interior Alliance has represented the viewpoint of not participating in the treaty process and I think that that kind of coverage just based on the realities of the connection and the lower mainland being a real focal point for communication and for meetings and all of those things that I just can't see how those issues would not be given importance or covered with AVR, just because of its location. I don't think that would be a barrier.

12323 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: That was an issue that at some point, as I understand, AVRN, the network's interest is that at some point they would have more locations in other parts of the country, but that's not before us so I am not allowed to talk about that today.

12324 Is it your sense for people living in the interior that -- well, I guess I am getting back to the issue I just said we can't talk about.

--- Laughter / Rires

12325 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please stay away from those.

--- Laughter / Rires

12326 MS TANYA WILLARD: We would like to put forward another proposal now.

--- Laughter / Rires

12327 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: The door is open.

12328 Is it better for people in the interior to have a Toronto-based station sooner rather than perhaps waiting for a station that may come from northern B.C. down the road?

12329 MS TANYA WILLARD: I am not sure what you mean.

12330 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. There is a concern that has been raised by Northern Native Broadcasting that operates a couple of stations in the north of the province in Greenville and Terrace and they are interested at some point in expanding throughout the province. We don't know when that would be.

12331 Is it of more interest to you to wait for that, for that B.C.-based organization to come south or is a Toronto-based aboriginal station, does that satisfy your interest?

12332 MS TARA WILLARD: I will answer that.

12333 As I mentioned in the beginning of my presentation, with the Interior Alliance being involved with the national Delgamuuk Implementation Strategic Committee which already has national workings to bring about communications and committee participation. So from that point of view I think that sooner is better to establish that networking, to get the issues out on a national level to foster that education, public education across the country.

12334 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So the Toronto-based approach doesn't bother you. Like a Toronto-based station that is national is not a problem for you?

12335 MS TARA WILLARD: You mean including the Vancouver station as well?

12336 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Right.

12337 MS TARA WILLARD: And linking up that national sort of network. Yes, I think that would be sort of better.

12338 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay, thanks very much. Those are my questions.

12339 You wanted to add something?

12340 MS TANYA WILLARD: I just wanted to add that I think actually it's really important that there is a link that is taking place in larger city centres. I think that a lot of our youth are really attracted to city centres and what is going on in those places and we get a lot of youth moving from their communities out into the city centres without a support structure there to support them, and then tragically they become very involved in difficult social issues and I think that it's really important that young people see it coming from a place of kind of excitement and be excited about it.

12341 I think it's important for the rural communities too, but I just think there is an importance there that they can see it can serve something bigger and that links happen.

12342 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Well, that does lead me to one more question.

12343 You talked about people from the interior moving to Vancouver. Is there a lot of movement between Toronto and British Columbia that you are aware of?

12344 MS TANYA WILLARD: I mean, I think that there is a lot of moving going on just in general with aboriginal people coming to different centres. I think there is quite a link between Toronto and Vancouver. Just speaking from the aboriginal art scene, there is a lot of links between what goes on in Toronto and in Vancouver and there is a lot of transmigration that happens there. So there is a strong link existing.

12345 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thanks very much.

12346 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

12347 MR. EGGROS: I don't know whether to say good morning, good afternoon, or whatever it is.

12348 THE CHAIRPERSON: It all works.

12349 MR. EGGROS: Pardon?

12350 THE CHAIRPERSON: It all works.

12351 MR. EGGROS: Anyway, welcome to the Cosalish territory. My name is Arthur Eggros and I am with the Stellat'en Band, West Saanich Nation on Vancouver Island, Grandwood Bay.

12352 I am the Vice-President of the National Aboriginal Veterans Association of the B.C. Chapter.

12353 We have been ongoing since the mid-1980s, but never really getting out to all the communities to talk about our veterans and what is going on and what is happening in DVA, the Department of Veterans Affairs.

12354 Because of all of this going on there was the lack of funding for the Aboriginal Veterans Office to go on and therefore it's all done by volunteer workers out of the lower mainland here.

12355 We also have a very generous support by the United Native Nations. Our President, Scott Clark, let us have office space, telephone, and mostly it is to have somebody take our messages if we are not in. This is very important. This still keeps us in the light of what is happening here. Without that, I don't think we will be able to survive.

12356 I know that we are always been asked about our warriors and why that they feel that Canada has not done the proper things to them. We have talked quite a bit about this here, really getting no place. But what we would like to do is the people of Canada and of British Columbia to listen to our stories, to listen to what our elders have to say.

12357 They did their part for a nation they really believed in. They went out and fought in foreign lands but they had to give up their indianness to become citizens of Canada.

12358 Once this had happened, they returned home to find out they could not live or get any kind of support from the reservation they had come from. They found out they could not get the support from any of the resources here in the community as a Canadian citizen -- returning from World War Two.

12359 You know, it's a sad thing to say that our people and other people don't really know the true story of our veterans. It is now with this radio station coming into place that we can now start to educate our young, our own people and other people about what had happened to them. You know, it's time for them now to be recognized as the great warriors that they are.

12360 Just like any other time, we are always in the back of the bus. We figure no more. I have listened to many, many stories about our elders and what they have done and what they received once coming back home. It's enough to make a person feel very, very sad at all times.

12361 I know if we could get communication to go out to the people, a medium to the United States too where we have a lot of our brothers and sisters that served with us are Canadians and don't know what is happening over here. This would be good for them to have.

12362 You know, we have been held back so long in so many different ways and not expressing our voices to anybody. And when I say "anybody" I am talking about our own community. They do not know the life history of our veterans. Today they still suffer from all the -- I don't know, the horror of war that they had to go through. To hear them talk about the stories and how it affected their lives and how it affected their families and their children. I think if we had had the same fair share break as any other veteran that came out of World War Two that today our population would be stronger, smarter and healthier.

12363 So this is why today I am very honoured to be here and speak on behalf of our aboriginal veterans of B.C. They long to have their stories told, they long to have somebody hear from them. We sat at the Senate when they came down here, I think it was in 1995, to hear their grievance about what had happened to them. We had ten witnesses that were allowed to speak on behalf of the veterans in B.C. Out of this, recommendations came forth a year afterwards and there were nine of them. Out of the nine, one more or less has been completed and the other one is now taking place and will be done on June 21st of next year.

12364 One is a scholarship for our aboriginal veterans who do not have the means and ways of sending their children or themselves to universities, college or whatever because they were not entitled to any type of money or financing of their schooling or medical and all the other good things that everybody else had received.

12365 So as we look at it, many of our veterans blame Canada for all the wrongdoings that have happened to them and how we are now living in a type of world where we could have been a lot more happier in.

12366 And this is what they want to do today, is to make it better for other people to understand us, for us to understand the other people. The importance of communication throughout the land of Canada is very important, not only to our culture, but to all other cultures that are here with us, for us to understand them and for them to understand us. And this we have tried for many, many years to do.

12367 I see that this communication that will be coming into place will be a very helpful tool for all the people of Canada and British Columbia to better understand the native way of life. The hardship that we see throughout the land where we see people abusing alcohol, drugs or whatever is because they do not have the opportunity to hear about certain things and where they can have the resource at hand to help them.

12368 And that's the importance within our native community, it is for it to go out, for the people to know where to come to, who to talk to, who can help them and steer them in the right direction.

12369 This young lady over here talked about the health care, diabetes, and how many of our people are suffering from that today and yet they do not go out and ask anybody else. They won't ask because they have been ridiculed in many different ways and they have never received a proper answer that they could understand to where all the resources are at.

12370 With this network being on the air, it will help our native people and other people from other cultures to have a better understanding tool for them to find out and given the information of where to go to and their own resources such as our too.

12371 With our aboriginal veterans we have everybody included -- status, non-status, Métis and Inuit -- and I think for this reason here is why we have been very slow in coming around and achieving funding for this program here.

12372 With our veterans they have so many ideas in their heads in which way to go to help out our youth today -- all the troubles that have been going on and what is happening in urban areas and the reserves and all this. They talk about the times that they lived on reserves and what was happening to themselves, about once entering the military and how they learned to work as a team, how to be a disciplined person and how to take care of oneself. These are the words that they want to get out to our youth today.

12373 They would like to see them in the cadet core. They would like to see them go into the bald eagle program. They would like to see them into other programs that resources have on the community, but there have to be more details of what is out there for them to understand.

12374 And this is what our veterans have always talked about. We don't glorify the war. We went through it, but we don't want to see our children go through that. It is hard to lose someone that doesn't come back and for them, the great warriors that they are, it is to say what happen to our children, this is what they died for -- the equality of our people. I think we will always be there. We will have it all the way through. Whether others accept it or don't accept it, it will be there.

12375 We are not here today to say that we are going to take a political stand. We are here to be with the people for the people. We want them to be a part of us and the only way we can do it is to have this network go on. There are so many different issues that we have to talk about for our veterans.

12376 MS VOGEL: Mr. Eggros, I am sorry to interrupt, but we are well passed the ten minutes. I am wondering if you could conclude.

12377 MR. EGGROS: Okay.

12378 Thank you very much and I would like to close out with our saying is that we believe that the Aboriginal Voice will be enhanced and our goal is unity, dignity and healing and that will be for all listeners, native and non-native.

12379 Thank you.

12380 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr. Eggros.

12381 Commissioner Cardozo.

12382 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you, Mr. Eggros.

12383 I am quite aware of the issues you have outlined in terms of the difficulties that have been faced by aboriginal veterans and I appreciate your coming here to share these with us today.

12384 I am wondering, of the members of your organization, are there many that still do speak aboriginal languages?

12385 MR. EGGROS: Yes, there is. There is quite a few still within our membership that when we have gatherings or whatever they do speak in their own tongue to welcome them to their territories or say thank you for allowing us to come into your territory.

12386 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And do you see a radio station as playing a role in keeping those languages alive and growing then?

12387 MR. EGGROS: I think that one is --pride, we always feel pride at our veterans who know the language and hear it. We will continue to speak it and more than willing to listen to it. That is something that we know is sort of dying out. With this help, with this station like this and hearing the people talk in our language will ensure or give encouragement to others to speak it.

12388 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Well, thanks very much.

12389 I don't have any further questions, but I do want to acknowledge that your testimony has been very useful to us today, both as a veteran and as an elder.

12390 Thank you very much.

12391 MR. EGGROS: Thank you.

12392 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Commissioner Cardozo.

12393 Thank you very much, Mr. Eggros.

12394 Next.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

12395 MR. JOSEPH: (Native language spoken)

12396 Greeting to all of you. I wanted to start by acknowledging our presence on Cosalish land and thanking them for allowing us to be here. I want to thank the committee members for allowing us to be here to present our views. I hope that in some way our views will be heard and considered.

12397 My name is Robert Joseph. My ancestral name, my chief kinship name is Kwakwakagadsie(ph), big thunderbird. I come from the north coast. I am a member of the Kwalano(ph) tribe of the Kwakwaka'waku First Nations, but my duty here today is to speak for the Vancouver Aboriginal Council.

12398 The Vancouver Aboriginal Council is a coalition or alliance of 47 service delivery agencies, aboriginal service delivery agencies in Vancouver and our primary goal is simply to try to bring together all of that interest, all of that energy, all of that planning, all of that resourcing together so that we can try to maximize benefit and efficiency in terms of the delivery of service to our people.

12399 In addition, while I am living here in West Vancouver, I am the Director of the Provincial Residential School Project, which is a project of the First Nations Summit. My job there is to assist our First Nations people whatever their status in coming to terms with the legacy of abuse in Indian residential schools.

12400 I really feel strongly about the need for an aboriginal radio licence. I feel very strongly about that and it comes as a result of the long experience I have had in our indian communities. It has been over 30 years now that I have worked in various capacities with the native people throughout the province.

12401 I have worked for provincial organizations like the Union of B.C. Chiefs, Native Brotherhood of B.C., Raven Society, I have worked for tribal Council like the Kadra District Council, the Muskmak(ph) Tribal Council, the Nuu-Chah-Nulth Tribal Council. I have worked for large and small bands. A long time ago, when I look back, I see my trail seems to be so long now.

12402 And I look back at another time when I was young. I worked at an organization called the Company of Young Canadians. I am sure that maybe none of you are even old enough to have heard about the Company of Young Canadians, but it was in a time of great idealism. It was in a time when Prime Minister Mr. Pierre Elliott Trudeau wanted to bring about a just society for all of us and it was at that time that I first began to really become involved in community organizing and we had 16 projects throughout the coast here in B.C.

12403 After that I worked for various federal government agencies as a local government advisor, a community development worker, a district manager and aboriginal fisheries advisor to the Department of Fisheries and Oceans. So you can see that I speak from experience that understands the fundamental requirement and need to have a strong voice and I think this radio station would give us a very, very strong voice.

12404 I have some other experience too in communications. A long time ago, again, I was a reporter for the Vancouver Sun, I was a reporter for the Can River Upper Island Courier(ph). I worked for native publications like the Native Voice and the Sika Raven Society, Indian Voice and others. So I have some experience and I know the potential for positive impact with good communications. And so I feel strongly about the need for this particular application before you.

12405 In all of my efforts, in all of my experience, I have always had a compelling need to try to bridge all of the solitudes between us. I tried in my own way to bring about understanding between all of us and it has been extremely, extremely difficult, but I did try.

12406 I have sat on boards of hospitals. I have sat on boards of credit unions. I have sat on boards of alcohol and drug treatment centres. I have been a board member of the Chamber of Commerce. I have been the Chairman of United Way drives and heart drives and many other boards, and always it has been in an attempt to be of some kind of service, not only to the aboriginal community, but to the greater community because I think sooner rather than later we need to move toward bridging that solitude.

12407 I think that communication is a fundamental cornerstone to any of these things that we want to bring about. It is so important.

12408 I mentioned earlier that I am a hereditary chief. I just wanted to do a quick, real quick flashback of a little bit about our history.

12409 I am told that in my tribe that we had a first ancestor. It really talks about genesis when you talk about first ancestors. That in our territory thousands of years ago there was a supernatural thunderbird that sat on top of Kway(Ph). They have since changed the name to Mount Steven. At one time during that time, before our time, this supernatural thunderbird descended from that mountain top and began to shed his thunderbird identify, his breastplate and wings and so forth, and when he got to the valley for that great mountain he was the first ancestor of the clan of which I am a direct descendent.

12410 I only mention that because throughout all of the territories of the Kwakwaka'waku we have at least 50 first ancestors stories that delineate absolutely and clearly our genesis, our territories, our languages, our membership laws, our codes, our customs, our laws, our distinct forms of traditional government, our distinct relationships to each other and to the environment, to the land around us, our sense of spirituality, our sense of family and community.

12411 I wanted to mention that because since that time a whole number of things have come about as a result of colonial imperatives that were so destructive to the aboriginal people. All those colonial imperatives were intended to remove us from our lands. All of those imperatives were intended to do away with the Indians, to destroy us so that we would be no more and all of the edicts of Fathers of Confederation and members of the Church and other members of the state, and I think it's important to recognize that because the Canadian public in general, society in general, refuses to accept that legacy, and it hurts too much and we have to change that.

12412 Aboriginal people here and throughout Canada have grave, serious problems. Every day we look at the screaming headlines about our suicide rate going through the roof. Every day we see the images of children in the north sniffing gas and falling down in the mud. Every day we hear about thousands of aboriginal people suing the Church and government. Every day we hear about the high unemployment rate, the high mortality rate, the rampant poverty. Every day we hear about the perpetual violence, the high incarceration rate. Every day we hear about the substandard health conditions and it hurts deeply.

12413 We have in British Columbia a treaty process that has produced very little other than high expectations, other than heightening the tensions of racism and intolerance. Every day we become more dispossessed as aboriginal people. Every day that the disparity between our societies grows larger and wider. You know what we do? Eventually we normalize that hopelessness, we normalize that trauma and it's not right. It hurts very much.

12414 Over our history together, they instituted residential schools. Here in British Columbia there were 17 of them. Throughout all of Canada there were 150,000 children who were forced to go to these schools. They were dispossessed of their parents, they were dispossessed of their communities, they were dispossessed of all of the inherent intrinsic values and principles that have always been sacred to us and we find ourselves here today facing the dilemma of what to do about that legacy of abuse and destruction and despair.

12415 I know that's difficult to have to listen to, but in the face of all of that, in spite of that, the aboriginal community stands willing, wanting, requiring, desiring to heal and to move on from that legacy of pain.

12416 We have some capacity. We need to create more capacity to deal with that legacy. We are fortunate that we have this indomitable spirit that says, "No, no, no. We will not go away. We will not give up". And so we have all kinds of momentum in our own communities about what we want to do.

12417 We want to reconstruct our families, our communities. We want to reconstruct our languages, our traditional laws. We want to regain our lands and our resources so that we can be self-sustaining.

12418 We want to determine our own forms of governments as we used to. We want to exercise our own spirituality, to have what is ours. That's what we want. To be aboriginal people what we are, to be what the Creator intended us to be. To live and to be a part of this great country of ours. We want to do that.

12419 We still have hopes, we still have dreams, we still have visions and one day together we can move forward from the place of despair and hopelessness.

12420 We haven't been able to do that for a long, long time, too long. In the richest country in the world, we haven't been able to do that.

12421 We have no voice, we have no power, we have no influence, we have no purpose. But we are awakening and we think that this, small as it might be in the great scheme of things, a radio station for aboriginal people would be extremely useful.

12422 And that's why we are here today. That's why VAC in interested in being here today to try to present our views on this matter, because there are many, many aboriginals right here in the lower mainland in Vancouver, 60,000 you have heard the figure.

12423 MS VOGEL: I am sorry to interrupt, but again we are well passed the ten minutes.

12424 Could you conclude, please?

12425 MR. JOSEPH: Oh, it couldn't have been ten minutes!

--- Laughter / Rires

12426 MR. JOSEPH: All right, all right.

12427 So in summary, in conclusion, I think it is an unescapable fact that aboriginal people would benefit from this radio licence. It would be a tool of empowerment, a tool of inspiration, a tool for rebuilding individuals, families and communities. It would be a tool for regaining our pride and our dignity and would bring about new hope for us. It would be a tool for educating. It would be a tool for reducing intolerance. It would be a tool to allow us to promote and to advocate justice and equality and bring about solutions to all of the things I talked about.

12428 The potential is there. This licence, however big or small it is in the total scheme of things, is crucially, crucially important for us.

12429 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr. Joseph.

12430 Commissioner Cardozo.

12431 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you, Mr. Joseph. That really gives us quite an interesting overview.

12432 I am wondering if you could add a little more. The Vancouver Aboriginal Council is a collective of service provider organizations, as you mentioned. You have talked about the challenges facing aboriginal people across the country and eluded to the gas-sniffing that we have seen more of on television in Sheshatshiu in the last few days, and there was a rather chilling documentary on CBC last night which you might have seen.

12433 There is no question that there is a lot that needs to be done and there have been other discussions about health services, social services, and so forth. I wonder if you could just draw us -- if I can repeat a question I asked earlier -- the line between dealing with those challenges and a radio station. You said it may be small in the scheme of things.

12434 Can it really make a difference when you think of the monumental challenges that we all face?

12435 MR. JOSEPH: Yes. One of the things that the Canadian government and other government levels have not yet recognized and they have not yet appreciated is the fact that the only real solutions that are going to work for aboriginal people will be the solutions that we come up with for ourselves.

12436 In the absence of being able to communicate some of these solutions and these models of restoration through the greater aboriginal population, we have not been able to bring about the level of inspiration that we need to do that.

12437 And I think in either a big or a small way, whatever it is, whatever level, this radio voice would have a huge impact.

12438 Just before I got cut off I was going to talk about the Aboriginal Peoples Television Network. All of you know about it, I suppose, and most of us have seen it, and I am not an expert of television, but what I do know is this, that even with the barrage of potpourri images of aboriginal people nationally to speak their language, doing their dances, telling their history, that has already inspired many of us throughout the country to want to associate with that history, that culture, that language, that pride, that dignity that we so desperately want for ourselves.

12439 So I think an aboriginal radio station would be very important.

12440 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And you are saying APTN has begun to do that?

12441 MR. JOSEPH: APTN has created an explosion of consciousness. For starters that's a big, huge step, just creating an explosion of consciousness. Otherwise we have always been isolated from each other. Now some of our young people and some of us old guys can look at this television with some sense of pride and feel good about ourselves.

12442 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Can you give me an idea of some of the programs that would you like to see on the radio station that would be most useful?

12443 MR. JOSEPH: Yes, I heard some of the other ideas. I think talk radio is an excellent forum for any radio station. It would create a dialogue between aboriginals and aboriginals and aboriginals and non-aboriginals. That is long overdue. As you may or may not know -- and maybe this is a very biased perspective -- mainstream media has not been able to carry our message, or accommodate the degree of dialogue that we need to have. A long time ago, as I said, when I was young, I heard this Marshall MacLuen guy saying the medium is the message. Then it still holds true today and I think if aboriginal people had the medium we could create a wider framework for dialogue than currently exists.

12444 But for starters, I think talk radio would be important. I think focused programming on health and education and environment and family and politics could all be programmed to the extent that our interests, all of our interests, various interests among the aboriginal community, would be from time to time served.

12445 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: You mentioned in your introduction, Mr. Joseph, that you are from the north of the province, but now your focus is Vancouver.

12446 Does it matter to you that this is a Toronto-based station as opposed to a northern B.C. or a B.C.-based station?

12447 MR. JOSEPH: What is important to me is that we develop the capacity to bring about an aboriginal perspective that through whatever technological means is disseminated so that whether it's urban or rural or north or Toronto or Vancouver, we develop the capacity to do that, to make those linkages of ideas and psychology or whatever it is, to make those linkages. So really I think that because this initiative is underway, in the absence of any other initiative, this should be considered very seriously.

12448 I applaud -- I have heard the Northern Native Broadcasting thing brought out once or twice now. I applaud their effort, but in the years that they have been in existence, and I don't know for sure how long, they have not been able to develop the capacity or not been able to develop a response to the greater need and I think that is important, to have the perspective of what the greater need that is required in Indian country to --

12449 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Well, thank you very much. Those are my questions.

12450 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Commissioner Cordozo.

12451 I would like to thank all of you very much. We very much appreciate that you have taken the time and the trouble to come and speak to us today.

12452 Thank you.