November 23rd, 2000 NOTE FROM THE EDITOR:The following is the transcript from the oral presentation to the CRTC hearings in Burnaby, British Columbia by Aboriginal Voices Radio
--- Upon resuming at 1700 / Reprise à 1700
6626 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon.
6627 Madam Secretary...
6628 MS VOGEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.
6629 Next on our agenda is an application by Gary Farmer, on behalf of a company to be incorporated and to be known as
Aboriginal Voices Radio, for a broadcasting licence to carry on an English and Aboriginal Language Native Type B FM radio
programming undertaking at Vancouver.
6630 The new station would operate on a frequency of 90.9 MHz, with an effective radiated power of 1,200 watts. 6632 MR. KENNEDY: Greetings, Madam Chair, Members of the Commission, Commission Staff and members of the
public.
6633 We are pleased to appear before you today to speak on behalf of Aboriginal Voices Radio, a non-profit organization
owned and operated by Aboriginal people from all regions of Canada.
6634 Before we begin our opening remarks, we wish to honour and recognize the Coast Salish people upon whose traditional
territory we are permitted to meet here today. Especially, I have the honour of introducing to the Commissioners the Chief of
the Squamish Nation, who is with us to the far right, Chief Bill Williams.
6635 We will now introduce ourselves.
--- Native Language Spoken / langue étrangère parlée
6636 My name is Bob Kennedy. I am a member of the Oneida Nation. I am also a member of the founding Board of
Directors of Aboriginal Voices Radio. I have had the pleasure and privilege of working as a broadcaster journalist in this
country much of my life.
6637 As well, I am the publisher of Turtle Island Native Network, turtleisland.org
6638 MS PIERRE: (Native language spoken.)
6639 My name is Billie Pierre. I am one of the co-founders of Redwire magazine, which produces a provincial native youth
job magazine and a national uncensored native youth magazine. 6642 MS BUFFALO: (Native language spoken.)
6643 My name is Marilyn Buffalo. I am a member of the Samson Cree Nation. I have just completed a three-year term as
President of the Native Women's Association of Canada, and I have acted as native affairs advisor at the University of Alberta
and as a policy advisor to the Assembly of First Nations.
6644 I have 30 years of community development experience in urban, rural and northern isolated communities. And I believe
strongly in the power of radio to make an everyday difference in Vancouver area Aboriginal communities.
6645 MR. FARMER: (Native language spoken.)
6646 My name is Gary Farmer. I am the Speaker of the Aboriginal Voices Radio Board of Directors. I am also an actor and
a radio and television producer, and I am a long-time worker in the development of native broadcast media.
6647 MS REECE: Hi, my name is Cleo Reece. I am a video-maker and a radio broadcaster at Co-op Radio. I am one of the
founders of the Indigenous Media Arts Group which presents the IMAGeNation Film and Video Festival here every year.
6648 MS WARD: (Native language spoken.)
6649 Hello. My name is Joy Ward. I am a Cree Métis.
6650 I am a policy consultant with the Health Association of British Columbia, and I am also a director of the Métis
Commission for Children and Families.
6651 MR. DESMARAIS: Hello, my name is Lou Desmarais. I am the Executive Director of the Vancouver Native Health
Society, as well as a co-chair of the Vancouver Aboriginal Council.
6652 MS RIVERS: (Native language spoken.)
6653 Greetings, everyone. My nickname is Sheryl Rivers, and my two ancestral names are Seemtenot (ph) and Mulnaydee
(ph). I come from the Coast Salish territory here, along with our Chief from the Squamish Nation. I am a young
entrepreneur -- I want to be young -- doing facilitating and cultural work.
6654 MS WHITE: You make me nervous, I might add.
6655 (Native language spoken.)
6656 In the highest of honours, I feel privileged to share time with you in the Coast Salish territory.
6657 My name is Kelly White. I am a broadcaster with CFRO radio. I produce public affairs programming for Kla-how-ya
FM, and I am on the standing Board of Directors of Co-op Radio. I am pleased to be with you this evening.
6658 MR. KENNEDY: Commissioners, also, if I may, in the audience we have members of our community, members of our
youth supporters, as well as our Aboriginal women's organizations in the community, and I would like to acknowledge and say
thank you.
6659 Mark MacLeod is with us. He is AVR's Director of Licensing and Development, and has previously had the privilege of
serving as head of national community radio associations in both Canada and the United States.
6660 John Matthews is our Director of Engineering.
6661 Bob Templeton is President of NewCap Broadcasting, Aboriginal Voices Radio's corporate associate.
6662 I would now like to ask Gary to begin our opening remarks.
6663 MR. FARMER: Bonjour. Good afternoon. Members of the Commission, we are pleased to be here in front of you once
again. We appear today to talk about the need for a new radio service in Vancouver and to outline our proposal to meet that
need.
6664 In our presentation we will highlight three themes. First, there are urgent needs in the Vancouver urban community, and
there is tremendous community demand for an Aboriginal radio service.
6665 Second, we will highlight our carefully designed programming plans for a radio service to fulfil this community need.
6666 Third, we will describe our financial and human resources that we will use to launch our successful operation in
Vancouver, including how we will develop local programming.
6667 With the Commission's approval, Vancouver will finally get a new Aboriginal voice radio service, with music, news and
discussion, where Aboriginal voices can be heard 24 hours a day.
6668 MS WHITE: Members of the Commission, Vancouver is home to the third largest Aboriginal population, which we
celebrate. The station we propose will be a first radio service for Vancouver's estimated 100,000 urban Aboriginal peoples. It
will be the first connection for many non-native Vancouver listeners to Aboriginal language and culture, and an introduction to
their native neighbours.
6669 Vancouver is a gathering place for Aboriginal people from many regions and backgrounds. Aboriginal people are a vital
part of Vancouver city's cultural and civic life. The population of Vancouver is growing quickly and its Aboriginal community is
growing even faster.
6670 The Aboriginal population in Vancouver, while young, like any urban youth culture, has tremendous energy.
6671 The Commission will see this in the Vancouver members of the AVR's presentation team and in next week's supporting
interventions. Vancouver has a broad urban international mix, including the large Latin American Aboriginal population.
6672 Vancouver has many diverse cultural aspects, but Vancouver does not have an Aboriginal radio station.
6673 The limited native radio hours available for broadcast in Vancouver are almost entirely on the non-profit community
radio station, Co-op Radio. I am a Board member at Co-op and a producer for Kla-how-ya FM, which airs on CFRO 102.7
FM.
6674 Unfortunately, a shortage of Aboriginal programming is common in major cities across our unceded territories. This
situation exists despite the expressed interest of both native and non-native urban listeners. There are dozens of radio services
received in the Vancouver market, yet none is dedicated to the reflection of the Aboriginal culture.
6675 Aboriginal talent, musicians and artists, are often effectively shut out of the Canadian airwaves. For AVR, the application
that we envision here -- vision without action is merely a dream. Vision with action can change the world. Action without vision
just passes the time.
6676 In the highest of honours, we invite you as the Commissioners of this seat to create AVR's partnership with broadcasting
a reality. May the forces be with you in the highest of honours. The privilege is yours to support AVR's application, and I
thank you in the highest of honours. (Native language spoken.)
6677 MS WARD: AVR has used market research, focus groups and broad community consultation to identify the expressed
needs of urban Aboriginal communities. That research forms the foundation for our programming and business plans.
6678 AVR's market research in major cities across Canada has shown that 9 in 10 Canadians believe there is a need for a
national Aboriginal radio service.
6679 In Vancouver 95 per cent of those surveyed agreed that there is a need for an Aboriginal radio station here, and they
support the goals AVR has set out for its service.
6680 In keeping with our traditions, the proposed AVR service was presented to the Vancouver community to ensure it was
wanted and to shape it to best fit the community needs in Vancouver. The positive response was overwhelming.
6681 Support has come from many individuals and organizations. Energetic support for a new Aboriginal radio service has
swept through Vancouver area native communities. AVR's support in Vancouver is comprehensive and spirited, which bodes
very well for the station's future.
6682 We have seen a wide variety of reports from various levels of government over the last three decades, including the
comprehensive Royal Commission report. The reports have detailed the loss in Canadian culture due to the absence of
Aboriginal media. The Royal Commission report also set out the expected benefits for both Aboriginal Canadians and the
general public from the development of Aboriginal media.
6683 The Assembly of First Nations, the Congress of Aboriginal Peoples, and all of the major Aboriginal organizations
support our effort to establish Aboriginal radio services in Canadian urban centres. The Government of Canada has prioritized
improved communications as the key to the successful resolution of outstanding issues between native and non-native peoples.
6684 MR. DESMARAIS: The federal government, in partnership with Aboriginal leadership, has recognized the magnitude of
the urban crisis here. A number of major joint initiatives are under way, with a focus on development and supporting healthier
urban Aboriginal communities.
6685 Communication is a vital component of these new initiatives, and free and accessible radio is a key to restoring culture.
Radio can support the good work of Aboriginal organizations in community health, education, language and culture.
6686 While Aboriginal people in Vancouver have expressed a strong interest in the new station, our market survey shows an
overwhelmingly favourable response beyond the native community. Our programming includes and welcomes all people. It will
be an offering to all the people of Vancouver.
6687 Think of AVR as a radio service "of" Aboriginal people, "for" all people.
6688 Members of the Commission, urban Aboriginal people are in the process of restoring and reclaiming our communities
through personal and collective healing journeys. Radio respects oral culture and brings Aboriginal people into the discourse
that will shape the future of all our lives. Radio also taps into an Aboriginal tradition of sharing the wealth of indigenous
knowledge, culture and values.
6689 Approve our new radio service in Vancouver, and we can reach out to promote efforts in the struggle for healthier
communities.
6690 Approve our new radio service in Vancouver, and we can build a better understanding between Aboriginal people and
all Canadians.
6691 And, Commissioners, approve our new radio service in Vancouver, and we can promote positive Aboriginal role
models, especially to our young people.
1715
6692 MS BUFFALO: Commissioners, understand our national vision and you will understand the critical role our Vancouver
radio service will play in it.
6693 We envision a full 24-hour national network. It will deliver national and local programming with an Aboriginal
perspective. The national programming schedule will include contributions from Aboriginal people in Vancouver and across
Canada.
6694 Vancouver-based programming will include locally produced segments, such as special event programming on National
Aboriginal Day or Louis Riel Day being carried over the national network. This experience will cultivate the local talent and
organization needed to develop consistent high quality, weekly and daily local Vancouver programming.
6695 We will aggressively introduce more local programming originating in Vancouver. However, this depends on how
quickly resources become available. This cautious approach will ensure a financially stable vehicle for future local
programming, while at the same time ensuring that local programming is under local control and responsive to the needs of its
audience.
6696 We have promised only the level of local control programming that we are sure we can deliver from day one. Local
programming will be geared up over the course of the licence period as resources become available, with a goal of 15 to 30
hours of local content by the end of the first licence period.
6697 Our Vancouver Media Advisory Circle will provide local editorial and programming guidance. This will ensure that our
national programming is responsive to Vancouver needs.
6698 The resources that the community brings to bear will inform our plan. We do not underestimate the challenge of
launching the national schedule. We want to take on that task first and launch an ambitious schedule of local programming next.
We will deliver high quality programming by taking on national and local programming efforts, each in turn.
6699 How quickly will we introduce a greater local schedule? This will be a function of how much funding AVR will gain from
NewCap application decisions in Calgary and Vancouver. Without the benefits that NewCap has offered, AVR will still work
toward our plans for local programming roll-out and network expansion, but our growth in these areas may take longer.
6700 MS RIVERS: AVR programming will reflect the Aboriginal experience across Canada. Newscasts, public affairs and
talk shows will address our needs, interests and concerns.
6701 Vancouver's Aboriginal community includes many languages and cultures. AVR programming will include many of
Canada's 53 native languages, as well as French, Spanish and other languages.
6702 Many Aboriginal languages and cultures remain in great danger of extinction. AVR programming will support the
preservation of Aboriginal languages in this emergency situation. Every program will support and promote Aboriginal cultures
and traditions.
6703 The network programming schedule will include full Aboriginal news reports, national phone-in programs, a women's
round table discussion, as well as focus programs on language, youth, elders and health.
6704 News assignments will focus on events which impact Canada's Aboriginal communities that have been overlooked and
under-reported by other news sources.
6705 AVR will also air spoken word programming which features in-depth exploration of public or community current affairs.
6706 As resources become available, one to two Vancouver journalists or producers will be hired to staff a local news
bureau, which will provide enhanced local coverage.
6707 MS REECE: Members of the Commission, AVR music programming will feature a mix of primarily Canadian and world
Aboriginal artists in a broad range of musical styles. Program hosts will provide informed commentary, information on the
artists presented, and a variety of educational and entertaining Canadian Aboriginal perspectives on issues of the day.
6708 While the new radio service will bring an Aboriginal world of programming to Vancouver, the vibrant local community in
Vancouver will make vital contributions to the programming service they hear.
6709 Open-line programs will include the participation of Vancouver listeners.
6710 Music requests will allow listeners interactivity by telephone or the Internet.
6711 News reports, interviews and other segments from or about Vancouver will allow elders and youth, and women and
men of Vancouver's various nations and cultures to share their voices.
6712 This new national programming perspective will allow current events and cultural affairs taking place in other regions of
the country to be better understood in Vancouver without the filter of mainstream media.
6713 Of course, the new service will also provide the opportunity for Vancouver issues to be aired across the country.
6714 I am a broadcaster and radio programmer, and a former Board member of Vancouver Co-op Radio. It is the only outlet
available to local native people, and it is all done by loving volunteer labour.
6715 I see this new radio service as a way to participate in the media. We have many experienced broadcasters and
programmers already here, and a wealth of talent among our young people. We have fostered and encouraged the involvement
of youth in our local programs at Co-op Radio, so we are poised and ready to take part in this new radio service.
6716 MR. KENNEDY: Members of the Commission, our market research has demonstrated demand in Vancouver for our
proposed service. We took a very conservative approach in using this demand to forecast how much national advertising
revenue adding Vancouver to the existing network could generate. Our revenue projections far exceed the modest operating
costs.
6717 A network consisting of at least Toronto and Vancouver stations will be on a sound financial footing, with great potential
advertising revenue growth and less reliance on program underwriting and fundraising.
6718 We have strong support in Vancouver for a pre-launch campaign to offset all of the station's capital and start-up costs.
These costs total less than a quarter of our current $1 million reserve fund, which was created to cover unforeseen shortfalls in
funding AVR's development.
6719 The Vancouver service is not expensive to establish and operate because we plan to introduce local programming only
later, after network revenues have expanded and stabilized.
6720 Members of the Commission, AVR has a solid business plan and the financial and people resources to back it up. AVR
is continuing to expand its Board and recruit additional advisors to have the widest possible depth and breadth of expertise.
6721 Our legal counsel, Aird and Berlis, and our accounting firm, KPMG, have specialized experience in broadcasting and
Aboriginal business issues. Our directors and advisory circles come from all across Canada and represent years of expertise in
all areas of broadcasting.
6722 In addition to these resources, AVR seeks the spiritual guidance of our elders, and the approval of all of our
communities.
6723 The AVR radio team has produced and distributed radio shows to native stations and networks across North America.
We have produced concerts, an arts festival, webcasts, and 24-hour a day special event broadcasting. Three years of
outreach to the community have shaped our vision for an Aboriginal radio service.
6724 MS PIERRE: The Commission awarded AVR an FM radio licence in Toronto earlier this year. The Toronto service is
proposed to be the flagship station for the Aboriginal Voices Radio Network. AVR's application for the network licence was
a non-appearing item at the Calgary hearing earlier this month. AVR is awaiting the decision on an application in Calgary for a
local service of the network, similar to our proposal for Vancouver.
6725 This Vancouver application represents the next step in AVR's plan to spearhead the rapid development of Aboriginal
broadcasting in Canada, especially in urban centres in southern Canada where Aboriginal voices are seldom heard on the
airwaves.
6726 Despite years of supportive CRTC policies, this deplorable situation exists in contrast to the clearly stated objectives of
the Broadcasting Act.
6727 Just as the arrival of the AVRN service in Vancouver will greatly benefit Vancouver listeners, the launch of the
Vancouver service will play a key role in the accelerated development of the national Aboriginal radio service right across
Canada.
6728 AVRN will not duplicate existing Aboriginal or non-Aboriginal services, but rather will provide a supplementary and
supporting service, complementing and building on radio services which presently exist in the Canadian broadcasting system.
This will provide support for emerging native broadcasters, particularly those who are ambitious to provide a full schedule of
native programming but are simply unable to secure the necessary resources.
6729 AVRN will work closely and share programming with these existing native broadcasters, including the various native
radio networks and societies which operate in northern and rural Canada, as well as other Aboriginal broadcasters who
produce programming for university-based and community radio stations.
6730 MS WARD: Commissioners, Vancouver needs a new Aboriginal radio voice. 6735 Members of the Commission, you finally have the opportunity to license a new and unique Aboriginal radio station in
Vancouver. Meegwich et merci.
6736 MR. FARMER: We have highlighted seven key components of our plan for this programming service:
6737 One, to be the first Vancouver outlet for the broad everyday expression of Aboriginal voices.
6738 Two, to offer a media venue where native and non-native Canadians in Vancouver can speak as neighbours.
6739 Three, to be an inclusive radio service for all community voices: women and men, elders and youth.
6740 Four, to be a means of support for the promotion of Aboriginal language and culture.
6741 Five, to provide exposure and promotion for Aboriginal artists and entrepreneurs in Vancouver.
6742 Six, to operate with respect for the principles of environmental sustainability.
6743 Seven, to remain a native controlled and operated media not dependent on government.
6744 MS BUFFALO: Members of the Commission, we have provided all of the necessary assurance which you need to
make a decision in this application process to license Vancouver's first Aboriginal radio station.
6745 While it is a great loss to the community that no native radio service has existed in Vancouver before, it is necessary to
finally license this new service now. There may not be another opportunity.
6746 MR. KENNEDY: Commissioners, we have clearly identified demand in Vancouver for a new urban Aboriginal service,
and we have carefully shaped our programming service to meet this demand.
6747 We have found a passion amongst Aboriginal people in Vancouver to share their wealth of indigenous knowledge,
culture and positive values, yet there is no full-time Vancouver radio service upon which we might hear their voices.
6748 We have proposed a sustainable business plan that includes sufficient capital funding, and we have put together an
experienced, confident and knowledgeable team.
6749 We have reached the moment where we can include a Vancouver Aboriginal radio voice in the Canadian broadcast
system. All of the elements are together.
6750 Commission Members, the time has come for you to approve an Aboriginal radio voice for Vancouver.
6751 Thank you, Commissioners. We are available to answer your questions.
6752 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. I will turn to Commissioner Cardozo to question you.
6753 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you, Madam Chair.
6754 First, let me say to Chief Williams and Sheryl Rivers that I want to thank you on our behalf for your hospitality as we
come to your territory to conduct our deliberations.
6755 This is, indeed, one of the most beautiful territories in the country, and it explains, along with your hospitality, why your
immigration policy of the last few centuries has been so successful. And, of course, it has been generous.
6756 I am struck by the comment by Mr. Desmarais that it is only now that we turn to Aboriginal radio, which, as you say,
radio respects our culture -- our oral culture.
6757 What I will do is outline the areas that I would like to cover with you this afternoon, outline a few general comments, and
then we will go through the questions.
6758 We will talk about the nature of the service, local programming issues, the Commission's native broadcasting policy, and
your relationship with existing Aboriginal broadcasters.
6759 Then I would like to talk about advertising, your business plan and audience projections. And then the last issue will be
technical and frequency issues.
6760 After that I will ask you to summarize.
6761 Let me make a few general comments first. As you are probably aware, at a hearing, once we get to the questioning, we
usually do the questioning on the issues where we need more clarification. If there are issues that I don't discuss in detail, it is
not that those are not areas of interest; it is just an indication that you have covered the area very well. And you probably will
find that I won't be focusing a lot on the need for Aboriginal radio, because I think, through your application and today, all of
you have articulated the need very, very well.
6762 It will come up through the process, but I am fully aware of the need that you have outlined and the passion with which
you believe that, and if I don't give you a chance to state that again it is not because I haven't paid attention to that issue.
6763 Second, this is a competitive process. There is another applicant who is looking at the frequency. So that is an issue that
the Commission has to keep in mind.
6764 Third, feel free to correct me and to educate me, especially when it comes to Aboriginal issues and perspectives. One
likes to think that one knows a lot, but at hearings we often find that we don't, and we learn a lot. So feel free to educate and
correct me on Aboriginal issues. I would be a little more cautious when it comes to broadcasting or regulatory issues, unless
you are sure of yourself.
6765 I say that in jest.
6766 The issue of licensing NewCap, which has an application in this hearing, is a separate issue. I am well aware of the
connection between their application and your application. And that's fine. It is a creative approach. But we are really bound
to consider the two applications separately.
6767 I have one other general comment to make, and that is that we are really, today, focusing on the Vancouver application.
As was mentioned earlier, the network application was considered at the Calgary hearing a few weeks ago, and it will be that
panel which will rule on that. It is sort of fruitless for you to try to argue that application, or defend it or promote it at this point,
because it won't be part of that record. Although, having said that, the line is blurred. There are a lot of issues in this
application that relate to the network. So when we are talking about the network, it will need to be in relation to the
Vancouver part of the network.
6768 I just want to say that I understand the connection, but we need to keep to the Vancouver part of it.
6769 Let me start by asking about the AFN resolution that was submitted as part of the record.
6770 I don't know who would like to answer this, but I just wanted from you a sense of whether you read it as a specific or a
general resolution, inasmuch as it has three parts to it, in terms of what AFN has resolved. One is that they support an
Aboriginal effort to establish a radio service in Toronto. Been there; done that.
6771 Then they support the effort to establish an Aboriginal radio service in other Canadian urban centres, which is the
application today.
6772 And the third is that they asked the Chiefs Committee on Communications to support the development of a native radio
broadcasting network.
6773 Is it your understanding that in doing this they are supporting AVR in particular, or the need in a general sense?
1730
6774 MR. KENNEDY: I could, if I may, respond to that, Commissioner.
6775 I had the privilege of appearing at the confederacy of nations, the AFN. When this resolution was presented I was asked
to speak to it, and I had the honour of doing that.
6776 My Chief, Harry Docksteder (ph), from the Oneida Nation of the Thames, actually put the resolution forward on our
behalf. Chief Lydia Wheatson (ph) of the Cowichan Nation, here in British Columbia, seconded that motion.
6777 I was presenting the entire picture of what our plan was. I laid out as clearly as I could, in the short time that I had,
AVR's network plan, as well as the plan to roll out in the communities.
6778 It was my understanding that the Chiefs' support was based on the information they received, which was based on our
presentation to the Commission and information that we have given to you.
6779 I hope I have answered your question.
6780 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Yes. Do you know what the status is, in terms of the Chiefs Committee on
Communications addressing the issue?
6781 Is there a subsequent step that will happen?
6782 MR. KENNEDY: I don't speak on behalf of our Chiefs.
6783 I don't know whether Chief would like to speak to it, but my understanding is that it is a working committee, as are all of
the committees that the AFN has, and it is an ongoing committee. We can certainly undertake to find more information and
provide that to the Commission, if that would be useful.
6784 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And is it your understanding under the new National Chief, Matthew Coon Come,
that the support continues for this approach?
6785 MR. KENNEDY: It is our understanding.
6786 MR. FARMER: Chief Bill Williams has an answer.
6787 CHIEF WILLIAMS: Yes, thank you.
6788 The Chiefs Committee is an ongoing committee that deals with communications, and there are representatives from right
across Canada who want to ensure that the correct information is given from the Aboriginal point of view on what we are
doing and who we are as a people. And the committee is, as I said, ongoing, so no matter which National Chief is there -- and
at this point in time it is Chief Matthew Coon Come -- the mandate is ongoing.
6789 MR. FARMER: Marilyn Buffalo, as well, has just met with Chief Matthew Coon Come.
6790 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Please.
6791 MS BUFFALO: Thank you.
6792 I have had the privilege of discussing this matter specifically with National Chief Matthew Coon Come, and he is in full
support of this initiative.
6793 I had the privilege of meeting him in Calgary, before the Calgary application, and he is also -- a letter is en route to the
minister responsible in support of this application here in Vancouver, as well.
6794 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Perhaps I can ask you, are other organizations, like NWAC and -- I think you
mentioned the Congress of Aboriginal Peoples -- other organizations have backed this process?
6795 MS BUFFALO: Yes. I personally have met with these organizations, and they are familiar with it and support it.
6796 The Congress of Aboriginal People -- Chief Dwight Dorey (ph) has filed a letter in support of this initiative. It is, of
course, the organization that represents the off-reserve and urban issues in Canada.
6797 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Let me ask you why you think now is the time for an Aboriginal station in Vancouver;
not so much as why not, which one might ask. It may be obvious, but why now? Why hasn't it been before?
6798 MR. FARMER: Maybe I could refer to some of the local participants here.
6799 Cleo...?
6800 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I am wondering why you feel that now is a good time for this station and why there
hasn't been an application in the past.
6801 MS REECE: I think the organizers probably could answer the question of why there hasn't been one in the past.
6802 From my personal experience, if I look at my involvement with our Aboriginal Film and Video Festival, why has there
not been an Aboriginal Film and Video Festival here in Vancouver in the past? Why is there not an Aboriginal news station
here?
6803 All of these questions are things that we ourselves ask, but mainly it comes down to a lack of resources. And this is what
we are asking for now. We feel that we are ready and willing to step into this role, as media broadcasters throughout Canada,
instead of just in our little local areas.
6804 There have been organizations and people working on a national level for many years, and I think their hard work has
paid off. We are seeing now that we are able to communicate effectively across Canada and throughout the nations.
6805 MR. FARMER: If I could add to that, I believe historically that native people in Canada have really felt out of touch with
things that go on in Canada, and really didn't feel involved enough to actually ask for a licence. I don't think native people
actually believed that they had the right to participate in this process. Until we began to participate two or three years ago,
there was very few -- outside of the northern involvement, of course, and that early stage. But none of them had gone through
a licensing process. It was more of a decision on behalf of the government to empower the north with broadcast; it wasn't
necessarily the people's decision.
6806 I think it is just now that we are realizing that we can participate in this process, and we need the essence of what radio
broadcasting can do in our communities to move ahead in a good way with Canada.
6807 I am sure that Kelly would have some comments, as well.
6808 MS WHITE: I haven't been at the CRTC, so I am nervous.
6809 THE CHAIRPERSON: Don't worry, we are too.
--- Laughter / Rires
6810 MS WHITE: Wow! Congratulations. I can survive myself, I hope. I hope you can survive, yourselves, too.
6811 Why now? Having had the opportunity to present to parliamentary proceedings for 20 years, as well as having had the
privilege to present to the World Assembly at the United Nations since 1988, and Vancouver being the next international
community, it is extremely important and crucial for us to platform a partnership with the endeavours of communications, so
that we can develop a better partnership in regard to social and economic endeavours, and respects, of course, for
communications to be provided.
6812 On many occasions in the local community, even our neighbours, CEOs and organizations that provide their business in
the Vancouver area from overseas, as well as within the continent, ask: Where are the First Nations? Where do we contact
the First Nations? Oh, are there First Nations here?
6813 So in the highest of honours, partnership development with Canadian content with the First Nations provides a great
opportunity for us to partnership this broadcast in the best and the highest of quality for the creation of a better road for all of
the non-native partners that we have in our very richly diverse city here. To celebrate this radio broadcast would be a crucial
way to proceed with the cleaning of the umbilical cord for communications from indigenous peoples to the mainstream.
6814 I hope that satisfies your question.
6815 MR. KENNEDY: Commissioner, I would also like to, if I may, quickly --
6816 One of the events that is happening in Canada, as you know, is that we are finding our voice as urban Aboriginal people.
6817 You have asked: Why now? I think the "Why now" is focused on the south, is focused on the cities, and is focused on
urban areas. Many of the people who have joined us today, not only at the tables but in the audience, are urban Aboriginal
people, and the issues are snowballing. They are exploding.
6818 Joy and Lou Desmarais represent health concerns in the Downtown Eastside and in one of the large Aboriginal
communities.
6819 One of the reasons is because the urban Aboriginal people are finding their voice, and radio is a natural extension of that.
1745
6820 MR. FARMER: Chief Bill Williams.
6821 CHIEF WILLIAMS: Thank you.
6822 There are two specific reasons why now. One is economics. It is high time that Aboriginal people stepped forward and
stepped out of the fiduciary responsibility of the Government of Canada. This will give us the opportunity to take that one step,
to be able to show to the general population that we not only have the right, but we have the capacity, we have the
opportunity, and we also have the people who are trained and able to do it today.
6823 The other reason, unfortunately, is the population. I say unfortunately because the Aboriginal population is moving away
from the reserve-based system, because the reserve-based system cannot house all of the members of our community in the
reserve-based community.
6824 The good thing about it is, once they do come to the urban areas, such as Vancouver, which is the third largest city in
Canada, this population base does give rise to the opportunity for more of our members of our community to attend the school
system and get themselves upgraded for better opportunities than existed on the reserve.
6825 MR. FARMER: Marilyn Buffalo.
6826 MS BUFFALO: Thank you.
6827 Commissioners, I am 50 years old now. My grandson is going on 13 years old. In five or six years I could be a
great-grandmother. That is the nature of our community and our lifestyle. My mother is only 70 years old.
6828 Our youth need to get up to speed with the rest of the world.
6829 When I started working in community development in northern Alberta and the Northwest Territories 30 years ago as
political staff for Chiefs, we had telexes and we thought we were doing great.
6830 Our people at that time were not as well organized as they are today. Now we see people walking down the streets of
Vancouver with cellphones, each one of them talking to other people worldwide, and we have the Internet. We have fax
machines. We are now getting up to speed. Our children are very computer literate. Whereas we are not as literate in our
generation. We never had access to those types of communications.
6831 About a month or two ago there was approval to have a permanent Forum on Indigenous Issues at the United Nations.
How many of our people across Canada know that forum actually exists?
6832 It took us 30 years to lobby for that forum, and we now finally have it.
6833 Many of the elders who pushed to have that at the UN are not even alive today to celebrate.
6834 So it is time that we use radio as a tool to teach, and to combat racism, because we raise our children in this urban
environment and it is very dangerous. In order for us to teach and educate non-Aboriginal people, we need radio as a tool.
6835 It is a start. Thank you.
6836 MR. FARMER: Lou Desmarais.
6837 MR. DESMARAIS: Thank you.
6838 I have a brief comment. In my 20 years or so of working as a professional person on behalf of my people in a leadership
role with service organizations, it has been my experience, sir, that we only hear from mainstream media people when it is
licence renewal time, unless there is some other extreme controversy where they can't not talk to us.
6839 In between those times they either misrepresent us or, largely, ignore us.
6840 So I think what this opportunity gives us is a chance to get away from that. Thank you very much.
6841 MR. FARMER: Sheryl has a comment.
6842 MS RIVERS: I would like to speak on the importance of having this today as a cultural aspect. We have always had the
gift of oral tradition, handing down stories from generation to generation, and with this being able to be broadcast over the
radio --
6843 In our own communities we are losing a lot of our knowledge. Our elders are all passing on. With the importance of the
radio, we would be able to carry that forward and continue that storytelling in today's modern ways and means.
6844 It would also benefit all of the people who have moved down into the urban city of Vancouver from many different
nations, not only in B.C., but all over Canada. This would be a way where they could still practise and listen to some of their
own songs, dances, stories and traditions, and still practise their culture in a way that they are not having to be at home in their
own communities.
6845 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you for that.
6846 Before I go to the next question, Ms Kelly White, you have mentioned that this is the first hearing you have been to, and
I want to explain to you and others who come to a hearing for the first time that from here on the questions get a little more
technical and maybe more boring, but the reason we need to go through that is because, at the end of the day, there are scarce
frequencies, people compete for them, and our job is to make sure that the people who are accorded the licence have a good
business plan, are going to serve people, are responding to a need, and will stave the course for the time they are licensed.
6847 We do this with all of the applicants. Some people think we do this just to bore them to tears, but we actually have fun
doing this, I assure you.
6848 I don't know whether I should direct most of my questions to Mr. Farmer or Mr. Kennedy. I will just ask them, and you
can choose who answers.
6849 Do you see this as a Vancouver station or a Toronto station?
6850 MR. KENNEDY: We are creating the Aboriginal Voices Radio Network. We have a Toronto licence now, which
would be the flagship to kickstart the network. But, in fact, we see the signal that would provide a radio service here in
Vancouver, in the end, of course, would be a more comprehensive Vancouver station than it would be in the first case.
6851 Local programming: Of course, we intend to have an aggressive plan toward local programming.
6852 In fact, we are creating an Aboriginal Voices Radio Network first, seeking your approval for licences in the cities so that
we can have that network from coast to coast to coast.
6853 But, in fact, the programming that comes out of here will be Vancouver programming, combined with what we produce
in Toronto.
6854 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: As I understand it, it will be largely a repeater, or only a repeater.
6855 MR. KENNEDY: In the beginning it will be a repeater. Our long-term plan is that within the term of the licence we
intend to take, as I said, an aggressive approach to having local programming, depending on resources of course. That is a key
thing that we need to address. But we believe that the target is, within the licence period, to be pretty much a Vancouver radio
station, in terms of morning drive and afternoon drive, in those traditional times. That is the target we have within the licence
period.
6856 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: That is in the long run; right?
6857 MR. KENNEDY: Reality dictates that it is in the long run.
6858 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Let's just take the first year. You are planning in Toronto to be launched sometime
next year?
6859 MR. KENNEDY: Within the time that you have allotted to us.
6860 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Is that June of next year?
6861 MR. FARMER: It is June 2001, yes.
6862 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And if you were to get the licence here and launch, say, in the fall, or at about the
same time, in that first year it would be a Toronto signal that would be repeated here; correct?
6863 MR. FARMER: That's correct, yes. Except for the original programming that we are promising, yes.
6864 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. I will come to that in a second.
6865 Would it be the same time? If you are doing "drive radio" in Toronto, you would have to be up at three in the morning to
listen to "drive radio" here.
6866 Would there be one feed, or would it be staggered across time zones? Would it be repeated across time zones, or
delayed repeated?
6867 MR. KENNEDY: All of those are options, Commissioner. Technology allows us today to do a number of things that we
haven't been able to do in radio. It is obviously quite the challenge to anyone who is operating a network, whether it is CBC or
others who have had that in the past.
6868 We obviously want to provide a service to the audience, so we are looking at those options.
6869 We do have the option of going -- say, for example, that we are doing a six to nine traditional drive-time show. Then, of
course, it would be three to six in Vancouver.
6870 The other option is, of course, to do a staggered process to relate to the east coast, which is advanced, and to do the
reverse stagger in terms of the west coast.
6871 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So technologically it is simple enough to run your six to nine Toronto at six to nine in
Vancouver.
6872 MR. KENNEDY: Yes.
6873 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: You wouldn't have to run it at the same --
6874 MR. KENNEDY: Technologically, the other challenge you face, of course, is updating. And of course the news part of
it would have to be timely and relevant, and of course we would have an actual presence here in B.C. to do that. It would
probably mean that I would have to get up at three in the morning, but that would be okay.
6875 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Mr. Farmer, in terms of local programming in the first year, what would be the local
component? The Vancouver component.
6876 MR. FARMER: The Vancouver component consists of the commitment we have made in the application, which is about
two hours and fifty-five minutes per week.
6877 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Is that the sort of minute and a half that is repeated?
6878 MR. FARMER: Yes. I think it is a 12 or 15-minute segment that is repeated several times.
6879 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Would that get repeated only here in Vancouver?
6880 Would that be aired only in Vancouver, or wherever AVR is?
6881 MR. FARMER: It would be repeated wherever AVR is, of course, and it wouldn't be an only-Vancouver service.
6882 MR. KENNEDY: There is another option, as well, Commissioner. It would be my understanding that, in fact, the
technology would allow us in our clock to program that Vancouver local commitment at the same time we are programming a
comparable Toronto commitment, because of its events and calendar nature.
6883 Mind you, some of the materials out of the Vancouver one would be of interest to Toronto, but I don't believe it would
be parallel.
6884 MR. FARMER: The thing I might mention, just as an aside, is that right now I am producing a television show that has a
host who is from British Columbia, and we are producing it out of the Toronto market. Our communities are so intertwined
that half of the community in Toronto is from British Columbia and half of the community here in Vancouver is from Toronto.
We are really quite related no matter where we are in this country, and I don't think it is going to be an issue about what is
Toronto, or what is Vancouver, or what is Calgary. I think it is our community, and we are very close. Whether we are on one
side of the country or not, we are very close.
6885 There is no system -- no people in this country who have been as networked as indigenous people, whether through the
friendships in our system or through the Assembly of First Nations or through the Métis organizations that are represented right
across this country.
6886 We have had a long time to dwell on networking. We are very good at it. These issues around when it is going to play,
and this and that, I think are really irrelevant in the end, but I understand your concern.
6887 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: But at the same time Aboriginal peoples have had very, very long histories in different
regions of the country, and I am wondering to what extent the people in this part will feel that they are getting enough
information that is really about their history, their heritage, and the issues that are developing here.
6888 MR. FARMER: You have to understand the indigenous community -- or the Aboriginal community. They won't drop a
licence here, and this community would not allow us to not give the kind of information that they need, with the system that we
have in place, with the advisory circles based in Vancouver. They are going to put a lot of pressure on us to make sure that
they get their quality and the amount of programming that is going to be of interest to them.
6889 So I don't think that with the advisory circle system it is going to be an issue at all, because they are going to pressure us
to make sure that we get the programming that they need on the air.
6890 I know we will react to that, because Vancouver and Toronto are extremely -- especially the native communities -- are
extremely well linked. So I don't find that to be an issue.
6891 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Were you about to add something?
6892 MR. MacLEOD: Yes. Commissioner Cardozo, I would like to offer a comment.
6893 I think it is important that we realize that when we talk about local programming in the context of the two and a half
hours, it has to do with the CRTC's definition of what qualifies as local programming and what doesn't quality.
6894 In fact, the service that will be available, that will be the identical service. Both Toronto and Vancouver will have
programming from Vancouver and programming from Toronto, as well as programming from New Brunswick and from Nova
Scotia. So the same programming will be heard in both markets, but it won't be as much of a Toronto service being heard in
Vancouver as perhaps you might be led to believe by thinking that the local programming is only two and a half hours.
6895 It so happens that the two and a half hours we are talking about is programming that will be heard in Vancouver only,
not in Toronto. That is the only portion of the programming that we are committing in our licence to be different from one
market to the other.
6896 It has to do with, when we filled in the application, we put in two and a half hours of local programming, because it is the
only thing that qualified as local.
6897 But, clearly, there will be local Vancouver programming that is heard in Toronto and in Vancouver.
1800
6898 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And will somebody or some mechanism be flicking a switch so that that local two and
a half hours is only aired in Vancouver, and then Toronto will have its local at that same time, and Eskasoni, down the road,
would have its own?
6899 MR. MacLEOD: Yes. Technically that is a simple matter. As we mentioned in our presentation -- and I think it is clear
in our application -- the local content will include open line programs, will include a musical request, will include news reports
arising out of Vancouver, will include discussions that phone participants in Vancouver will be involved in, round table
discussions.
6900 There will be a tremendous amount of participation from Vancouver in this programming service. It simply will be the
same service heard in both markets, and ultimately the production happens in Toronto at a centre and is put up and made
available to anybody who wants to pick up that signal.
6901 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: How would the phone-in show work?
6902 Because that wouldn't be locally based, would it? Would it be a national phone-in?
6903 MR. MacLEOD: Excuse me. Could you repeat the question, please?
6904 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: The phone-in show that you have talked about, would there be a local one in
Vancouver, or are you talking about a national phone-in show?
6905 MR. MacLEOD: No, this would be a national phone-in show. Again, as we pointed out at the hearing in Calgary, we
have had a great deal of interest in our national service, once it is licensed, to be carried in Nova Scotia, New Brunswick --
wherever existing native or other broadcasters want to carry portions of the programming.
6906 So wherever the signal is heard, the 800 number will be given out and people will be phoning in.
6907 So, in a sense, we are not certain how widely across Canada, outside our own licensed stations, this program will be
heard, but we have a tremendous --
6908 As you might imagine -- I mean it is intuitive -- there would be tremendous interest in that type of a show by any existing
native broadcaster. To tie into a national phone-in show, that would be of great interest, of course.
6909 But, I think, to specifically answer your question, there will simply be one 800 number that anybody will phone from
anywhere.
6910 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: One of the reasons we have this requirement for local programming is that if a
broadcaster is deemed to be a local broadcaster --
6911 Let me put it the other way around. If a broadcaster wants to be able to sell advertising in a market, they ought to return
something to that market, namely, programming from that market, so that market feels a connection to that station. That is one
of the main reasons we are focusing on the issue of local.
6912 Do you see that happening? Does that local market, in this case Vancouver, get a return in programming for the
advertising that you can --
6913 MR. MacLEOD: The traditional model that the Commission uses or that the broadcast industry uses -- that commercial
broadcasters use -- doesn't really apply in this case. We are not planning on doing any local advertising, for one thing.
6914 But again, in a sense, this whole enterprise, every minute, is a public service enterprise. It is not like there are portions of
the programming that we are putting aside so that then we can carry out our commercial endeavours in the other hours; the
whole thing is a public service, non-profit.
6915 I think we promised in our application that at such time as we thought that local advertising would be an important
function of our business plan, we would come back to the Commission and ask for approval for that. But right now our
advertising revenues are based upon local sales in Toronto, and national ads on top of that that would be heard on the
network.
6916 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Then having a local presence helps in terms of being able to sell national sales. But if
you were only based in Toronto, you wouldn't be able to make the case for national ad sales.
6917 MR. MacLEOD: It is entirely possible, and we hope that companies based in Vancouver would advertise on the
network, but it will not be a local sale. We will be asking them to advertise on a national Aboriginal radio service. It is not our
intention to have local sales people selling in local markets at this time.
6918 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Mr. Farmer, the advertising issue aside, do you feel that in the case of this application
we shouldn't be too obsessed about local presence?
6919 We have rules and regulations, and every day of the week people ask us for exceptions. I am not saying I am granting
you one, but I am just saying --
6920 It sounds like you feel that we haven't quite got it right when it comes to Aboriginal radio, that local programming isn't as
important as it might be in other cases.
6921 MR. FARMER: No. I just think that our national focus on the programming based out of Toronto is going to benefit,
and in terms of a national talk-radio program, it is going to have participation from everyone who is listening to the signal,
which would include Vancouver, Toronto, New Brunswick, and wherever else our signal is accepted. And through the
Internet it is going to be into areas that we don't even know about.
6922 So in terms of the committed local programming of two and a half hours of original programming that is only for the
Vancouver market, yes, of course that is important, and I assure you that we will participate at every level to ensure as much
local programming as we possibly can.
6923 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. You are planning to have a news bureau in Vancouver by June of 2001. If you
were to be licensed, would you accept a condition of licence to deliver that?
6924 MR. KENNEDY: Yes.
6925 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Have you got staff or volunteers?
6926 How would this local news bureau run? Would you have staff or volunteers, or both?
6927 MR. KENNEDY: Yes, we would have both.
6928 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And have you got people lined up as yet?
6929 It is kind of early for 2003, but --
6930 MR. KENNEDY: We know that the talent pool is here.
6931 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And a Vancouver studio. Do you have plans for a Vancouver studio, where you
would do programming other than news?
6932 MR. KENNEDY: Yes, we do.
6933 MR. MacLEOD: Commissioner Cardozo, if I could add a comment, because I think it is important that we realize that
there are not applications that appear before the Commission for national radio networks like the one that has been proposed,
and that the Commission has yet to decide on, nor the type of local market licence which is being requested in the Vancouver
market by our application.
6934 We realize that you are asked for exceptions on a regular basis. I think that this is an exceptional licence application,
based on a great idea and on an excellent business plan. It is applied for through the CRTC's policies and commissions, using
the CRTC's application forms, but we realize that there are some angles and edges that don't fit exactly to the way you are
used to receiving applications. We trust that whatever consideration you make on your end for that, we have had to mould our
application to try to fit the process as well.
6935 It is unusual. In this country we have had very few radio networks that have come forward, so we hope that you
appreciate the exceptional nature of this application.
6936 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. Could you verify the languages that you will be using?
6937 I understand it will be 94 per cent English, 2 per cent French, 2 per cent Spanish, and 2 per cent Aboriginal languages.
Which Aboriginal languages are you looking at? And would the local portion be in Aboriginal languages that are relevant to the
Vancouver area, or British Columbia?
6938 MR. KENNEDY: Local programming will, of course, have local Aboriginal language references, yes.
6939 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Do you have any thought about which languages you would be adding to your roster
from the Toronto --
6940 MR. FARMER: It will depend, of course, on the person who is operating the board and what languages they are familiar
with.
6941 If they are from the Qualuit (ph), then the Qualuit language will come incidentally through their broadcast. If they are an
Ojibwa speaker, then we expect the Ojibwa language, and there are Ojibwa people across the nation. It will be relevant
depending on the experience of the broadcaster.
6942 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Maybe you could educate me as to what the major Aboriginal languages are that are
relevant more to this area.
6943 CHIEF WILLIAMS: We have 23 separate and distinct languages in British Columbia, and the type of language would
be the Haida-Gwai, Kwagulth, Titskan, Carrier, T'suweten, Coast Salish -- there are a varied number. As I say, there are 23
separate and distinct languages in B.C. alone, of the 53.
6944 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Does anybody want to add any others?
6945 MS REECE: I just wanted to add that there is presently an Aboriginal language program being broadcast at Co-op
Radio that is on every week. It is called "The Speaker" and it does broadcast in Hulkameelam (ph), which is a Coast Salish
language.
6946 There is a huge population of Cree people from all across Canada who live here who would be very interested in
Cree-language programming.
6947 There is a large population of Dene people, of Ojibwa people, and various communities from everywhere, all across
B.C.
6948 There is a large Haida population, there is a Tsimshian population, and they have their gatherings throughout the year,
and they would absolutely be happy to have a venue to learn and to teach their language.
6949 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: As you probably know, our native broadcasting policy requires that there be board
membership of the native population of the regions served. Does your board currently include any people from this territory?
6950 MR. KENNEDY: It currently includes myself. I am a visitor to the territory, but I have lived here for ten years and
consider myself to be a member of the Aboriginal community here. So there is board representation at the moment.
6951 But we will meet, of course, the policy which states the regional representation where you are licensed. We will meet
that obligation.
6952 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: How do you pick the members for the advisory circle?
6953 MR. KENNEDY: In fact, the community is more likely the process to pick them, but we are working with each
community.
6954 I will give you an example, if I may, in Vancouver. There are the First Nations, of course, including Chief Williams, with
whom we have had discussions; the Vancouver Aboriginal Council, in terms of the urban Aboriginal. There are the United
Native Nations and the Métis. There is the Union of B.C. Indian Chiefs, the Summit. All of the organizations -- and I have
named just a few -- have processes in place in terms of communication and consultation.
6955 It is another form of networking that we are involved with, but the advisory circle will be for editorial programming,
organizational --
6956 We are honoured to have Chief Williams at our table today for a number of reasons: to respect him, of course, in his
territory, but because of his business acumen, because of the communications barriers that his nation alone has broken through.
6957 The advisory circle will come from the expertise that is in the community.
6958 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I would like to turn to the issue of your working relationship with existing native
broadcasters. It is an issue that you have talked about in your network application, and it applies here too.
6959 I want to refer to one intervention which was opposing your application. They are not appearing, so I thought I would
like to raise it now and ask you about it. You can respond now, but you also have the time to think about it and respond in the
rebuttal stage if there is anything more you would like to say.
6960 Essentially, this is a letter from Canada's first native radio, which is CFNR, signed by Clarence Martin. It is dated
October 24.
6961 Are you familiar with the letter?
6962 MR. KENNEDY: Yes, Commissioner.
6963 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Let me just go through a couple of the things they have said and get your response.
6964 One of the reasons they are opposing it is that they feel there isn't enough of a working relationship with Northern Native
Broadcasting, of which, I understand, there are two stations and several repeaters in the province.
6965 What is your response to their view?
6966 MR. KENNEDY: First, I would like to say that I recognize and honour the work of Clarence and all of those who have
gone before him to establish Northern Native Broadcasting.
6967 As a little quick background, Commissioner, I have had the privilege of serving on behalf of the Government of Canada
on the federal liaison team that worked with Northern Native Broadcasting, so I know the hard work that has gone into it and
I respect the work that they do, and the service, which is, I believe, in in excess of 50 communities in the north.
6968 The operative word there, of course, is "Northern" Native Broadcasting.
6969 It is our intention -- and I have had a discussion recently with Mr. Martin, as has Marilyn. We both have spoken with
Clarence about the relationship building issue that he raised, and it is our intention to continue to have discussions with
Northern Native Broadcasting, because whatever we do can only enhance what he is doing. But there is a difference.
6970 What we are doing here is for the people who are in this room today, who are supporting us here: the urban Aboriginal
people, specifically in the south, who I believe are neglected and who certainly are under-served by the established
organizations, with respect.
6971 I believe that by having this infrastructure and radio in the south, working with our brothers and sisters in those other
organizations, we are going to have a powerful network.
6972 As an example, at this table you will see the representatives of local Aboriginal radio: Billie and Kelly --
6973 I am trying to keep track of --
6974 MS WHITE: Women.
6975 MS REECE: Cleo.
6976 MR. KENNEDY: You raise that, and I am glad, Commissioner, that you raised it. Local Aboriginal radio is driven by
women -- our Aboriginal women. We want to reflect that here.
6977 We also want to reflect that we have a relationship with the community.
6978 Aboriginal Voices has outreach. That is one of the key things we are doing, and if I may share with you --
6979 We are in Vancouver and we are here for a licence, but Aboriginal Voices Radio, in two situations -- when we were in
Calgary and when we were here in B.C. we were approached by communities outside, in this case the Saulteaux Nation,
which is in the far north, asking for some assistance, because they are not able to get it from the current system. We have
offered to assist them.
6980 We did that, as well, in Morely. Ms Cram met Margaret Rider, who was with us, from the First Nation, the Nakota (ph)
Nation people.
6981 So we have an established relationship with the current broadcasters, and we see that only getting greater.
6982 I hope I have answered your question.
6983 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Yes, you have answered my question.
6984 Have you allayed the concern that they raise? I don't know.
6985 One of the things that Mr. Martin says is that they would like us not to approve this application now because: "Northern
Native Broadcasting plans to expand its services south of the Hamelin Line to cover all of British Columbia."
6986 The question that comes to my mind is: You will be largely at a repeater from Toronto. Here is the potential -- and it is
just the potential -- of a British Columbia-based broadcaster expanding through the rest of the province. And I am thinking,
which one would better serve Vancouver? Which is closer to Vancouver? Geographically speaking, Terrace and Grenville are
closer.
6987 MR. KENNEDY: I understand, as we heard from Mr. Crowfoot in Alberta, as well, that there are plans and there are
intentions to do things. With respect, the urban Aboriginal community south have heard promises and are not served.
6988 Yes, in fact, ours is a repeater licence. That is why we are here. The application is clear on that.
6989 However, you also know that we are clear in our business plan to provide local, and we also are clear in our partnership
plan with NewCap in the provision of $4.2 million, which, if approved, would help accelerate our local programming. We
would have, by far, a much stronger local presence here.
6990 As well, the people at this table bring aboriginal programming with them, and this would be fed to Toronto, and it would
be fed back.
6991 We believe that the urban Aboriginal people in the south have a need, and now it is urgent. We have heard promises
before and, with respect --
6992 I don't believe that Mr. Clarence Martin or Mr. Crowfoot have applied to you to do this.
6993 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I don't believe so either.
6994 MR. FARMER: I know Bill has some comments as well having worked with northern native broadcasting. Bill.
6995 MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you.
6996 One of the things that had to be realized that we as Aboriginal people have to be viewed not only as separate and
distinct individuals, but also people who have the ability to carry on business in a business-like way. What we have presented
before you is a business plan and what Clarence Martin's issue is, is that he wants to expand a business and, unfortunately,
they are not prepared to develop that business plan and put it before you.
6997 What I would like to tell you at this point in time is we have a group of people who are business-minded. There is a
business plan in front of you and we would like you to view the business plan as it should be, separate and distinct and alone.
If northern native broadcasting do wish to expand, they have been functioning for well over a decade or two and they do now
have the expertise to be able to put forward a business plan to suit their needs.
6998 MR. FARMER: Also, Marilyn Buffalo.
6999 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Please.
7000 MS BUFFALO: I had the opportunity to speak with Mr. Martin this week and his schedule and my schedule we
couldn't connect for some reason. But we did finally get together and I believe the door is open and I made it very clear to Mr.
Martin that we are not out here to try and take anybody's business away. I believe that very strongly when you introduce a
new product, of which this is in the Vancouver market, Aboriginal radio, you are always going to have a backup, and that is
the same in anything. It is not just unique to just communications. It is the same in education and you are always going to have
that.
7001 So I believe at some point in the very near future that there is a possibility that we can sit down with all of these potential
partners as well and we are, of course, of the same blood. But we know we need to discuss these things behind closed doors
with each other first and I believe that can happen in a very good manner and in the next couple of years even I see it. Mr.
Crowfoot, as well, I have explained to him a couple of times already that we are open. We want to talk as well.
7002 MR. FARMER: One other thing, Mr. Cardozo, I would like to bring forth is that for years Aboriginal people haven't had
any service. So when they actually get some upstart service in a small rural community, they are going to play music that they
grew up with and for the most part our culture has been assimilated away from us and when we get a radio station it becomes
a little juke box and we put on what we have learned. And if we have grown up with country music, that is what we will put
on.
1815
7003 In the case of the Northern Alberta situation that is exactly what they play. They play country music for the most part. In
the case of northern native broadcasting they have kind of moved more to the kind of rock, they are kind of a northern rock
station for the community up there.
7004 What we are proposing actually is beginning to build someone like Wayne LeVallee(ph) who is in the audience here
today; he is a local musician. His music doesn't necessarily get played in a northern broadcasting system because it is native
music. They are not playing our people's music. It is in the urban centres in the south where the explosion of artists and
everyone is involved is where that is all kind of nurturing.
7005 And if Mr. Clarence Martin or Mr. Crowfoot would like to participate in service, I don't see why we can't have two
services in Vancouver market. It's large enough; there is enough people here. We have how many services here for the
non-Aboriginal people, several. How many services do we have for the ethnic people; multiple services. We have none. And
so I think this is really kind of a dead issue.
7006 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Well --
7007 MR. KENNEDY: Sorry. I know Billie Pierre is anxious to provide a perspective from youth.
7008 MS. PIERRE: First of all, I think that for native people that is really important that we have a national radio station in that
a lot of the news that is really important to us, you know, all the communities in Canada don't necessarily know what is going
on with these, in each other's place. But if there is a national coverage, then there is more communication of issues that are
happening, more current events and then support could be provided for those people that need it if there is like a crisis
situation or anything of that matter.
7009 And I think a provincial one would be good too, but I don't see why both can't be created. A provincial radio station
and a national but I think a national one may be best to link with all the Canadian --
7010 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And you live in Vancouver.
7011 MS PIERRE: I live in Vancouver. Also Vancouver is inter-tribal. There is people from everywhere and I am sure they
are concerned about what is going on in their communities.
7012 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So for you living in Vancouver, it wouldn't bother you for this national service to be
coming out of Toronto?
7013 MS BILLIE: No, not at all. I think it is a good. Like if things have to start and I don't think it will stay that way for long;
maybe at first but things have to be established. Like all the different radio stations in the different provinces. And also there is
a music scene in Vancouver and in urban scenes. There is hip-hop scenes, there is rap scenes, there is like a lot of young
native performers out there who are starting to need the support so that they can launch their careers. And I think that having it
based in Toronto or in a big urban setting would be good, would be beneficial for these people.
7014 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Now, when this idea first started and I guess when we were at the Toronto hearing
part of what I recall was that you would have this national service which would then be available to all existing native
broadcasters like northern native broadcasting or NCI in Manitoba and they could sort of cut and paste and use bits of your
stuff and do the rest of the stuff that they do themselves. Where is that --
7015 MR. FARMER: That is a wide open --
7016 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Is this my imagination?
7017 MR. FARMER: That is going to happen for sure. I think it is because we are moving so fast. I mean they have had
licensing for 23 years up there and they haven't moved into the major urban centres in the south and we have come along like
the new kid on the block and of course with the support of NewCap we have been able to move quite fast. In fact, you may
be seeing it elsewhere around the country in the near future within the next years. So it is a brand new effort. So it is moving
really fast and I think that is some of the issues around that.
7018 MR. KENNEDY: I will just be quick.
7019 If we look at what is happening today, northern native broadcasting, I mean I can only speak on behalf of myself but I
also know that the people at this table have the same situation. When there is a need for southern urban information at northern
native broadcasting, I myself -- they call Lynn Terbasket who is their mainstay at northern native broadcasting calls and we
provide journalism from our perspective here to them. And we are already doing it but we are doing it who are individuals who
are aware of what is going on and we share it.
7020 So the network will do that. I mean the cut and paste, as you call it, it is a two-way cut and paste. But we are already
engaged in some --
7021 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: But do you see that Vancouver could have that cut and paste where you might have
some from Toronto, some from Terrace.
7022 MR. KENNEDY: Yes.
7023 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: What would need to happen for that to happen?
7024 MR. KENNEDY: It can happen. It is the issue of when it can happen and I believe that becomes a resource issue and
we want to aggressively go after it and we would like to do that. Our goal in terms of Vancouver is 20 to 30 hours per week
of local programming by the end of the first term of license. I think that is a healthy local content. Regional input would be there
as well because of the connection between northern native broadcasting and it would feed down here and we would feed it
back to Toronto and it would come out of the networks.
7025 MR. FARMER: You have to appreciate that most of the native service is Canada is not running from midnight on to
6:00 a.m. We are going to provide a service right there for them that is going to be there that they can pull down very easily.
7026 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I have got more questions to go and I am just wondering if this would be a good time
for a short break.
7027 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
7028 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I hear a yes on the Panel.
7029 THE CHAIRPERSON: So we will be back at quarter to seven and hopefully we will all be going home to our beds
tonight, not sleeping in the hearing room. 7030 THE CHAIRPERSON: Ready? Whenever you are. If people aren't here, we can wait.
7031 MR. FARMER: I just wanted to announce that Chief Bill Williams had another previous engagement for 7:00 p.m. so he
has to excuse himself.
7032 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Sorry that we were so late today. We had a terrible time this morning with igniters next
door and so we ran a little late and our apologies for that and I am sorry he had to leave.
7033 MR. KENNEDY: And there is a member who would be coming just after now because of taking care of business.
Thank you.
7034 THE CHAIRPERSON: That is good.
7035 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. Let me just complete the questions that I had with regards to existing native
broadcasters.
7036 One of the things we have to deal with in almost all our decisions is balance, balancing different interests and that is just
about everything we do and every decision and there are various types of interests that are put before us. I look at the
concerns that have been raised by northern native and NCI and others and I look at your project which is really to reach into
urban centres which have not had Aboriginal broadcasting, and as you say, partly that is because of the way the government
support has been provided has been for northern and rural areas.
7037 I am wondering to what extent you, as the new kid on the block in terms of Aboriginal radio, see your role versus them
who have really been at it for a long time. I don't get a sense, and forgive me if this sounds rude, but I don't get a sense that
you feel there is much to learn from them, that you sort of know what you are doing and they are kind of doing their thing and
it is time for them to catch up with you, the train is leaving the station. Am I off base?
7038 MR. FARMER: Yes, I think so. I don't think that we are --
7039 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Be frank, please.
--- Laughter / Rires
7040 MR. FARMER: I think you are off base, Commissioner Cardozo, because northern native broadcasting is the basis of
what broadcasting we have had and radio has existed there. And I have certainly been through the licensing of APTN, right,
when the northern broadcast service was exclusively in the north and not available in the south.
7041 I went through that whole process of licensing APTN, winning the license, and that transition still today is a difficult one
between north and south that has been, you know, regionalism is what kills this country and it is not unbeknownst to befit the
native community as well in terms of the power that broadcasting brings to a community.
7042 So that is going to take some time to work out. I know that the services and the programming that they have in the north
for instance with the Inuit Tapirisat, some of the programming they have, there is a real interest to get that broadcaster's
languages into southern Canada for their people. And I think that is the kind of relationship that we will have with all of the
northern broadcasters. They are going to have programming that we are going to tune into and say, "Boy, that is a great
program. Let's get that on our network and let's get that across the country."
7043 Like I say, they are buying services from providers of music content for late hours just to provide some service to the
community for music programming. We will be able to provide that void. We will be able to say, "Hey, we are an all night
service that you can consider," and we will attempt to sell them on that concept so that they will take our service. We believe
that their is other broadcasters that exist in this continent that are capable of supplying service for them as well late night.
7044 So it is a two-way street and we are going to be looking towards them for guidance. Once we are licensed we are
going, I mean already there is a relationship between Wawatai(ph) and southern Ontario broadcasters, especially with
language broadcasting because they have been doing language broadcasting. They are the essence of language broadcasting.
They are the ones that are going to supply us with language broadcasting that they are already producing for southern -- for
their people in the south. We are going to be anxiously pursuing them to cooperate with us and to work with them to provide
service.
7045 But when it comes right down to it though in the south we are just so in need of the service for some basic issues that we
are dealing with in urban societies that that is all that we can think of right now, right, is to get this service and get it working for
the people. Then let's work at sharing resources north and south, east and west. We are all a big collective community and we
work together. And I think in my -- I looked at these interventions as business at hand. I mean somebody moving into the
territories, especially east moving west is very critical.
7046 But we are trying to provide a balance between national and local programming and we will start out resembling the
CBC Radio 2 and end up looking more like Radio 1 by the end of our first licensing terms. So we want to create balance too
in the broadcasting system too among our own people and we will actively pursue that.
7047 MR. KENNEDY: Chairman, Commissioner, one question I heard you ask us which was, we have got it all figured out
and we can't learn from it. This is the inference I took anyway that we have got it all figured out and we can't learn from them.
It's the contrary.
7048 We know the challenges that northern native broadcasting has had. We know the difficulties they have had and the
strength they have now because of the difficulties they have come through. But I think we have a new day. This is a new day.
This is a new time for Aboriginal people and for Canada in the way you are doing business with native people and native
broadcasting.
7049 We are not here with our hand out asking for a handout. We are not here asking for government money. We have come
to you with a business plan. We have come to you with a double business plan that fits the contemporary policy of the
government of Canada by having a corporate partner, by responding to the Royal Commission report, by meeting the
Broadcasting Act, by meeting what the government's policy gathering strength says we all must do.
7050 Canadians have to work together if Aboriginal people are going to be able to move forward and be self-determining and
self-sustaining by having their own communications. It says that and we have a corporate partner and we don't have the same
business model that northern native broadcasting has, and at the risk of repeating myself, I do have some personal experience
in having worked with Clarence Martin and before him Ray Jones and knowing some of the challenges and the benefits of that.
7051 Also I finish because I know Marilyn Buffalo has some things to say too, and that is we don't want to leave you with the
impression, please, that we are in competition with northern native broadcasting or that we present any kind of a negative
context to what they are doing. I represent what Clarence is doing and Lynn and other people up there. I know their product,
I know the work they are doing. We want to work with them but it is a new day and it is a different situation for southern
urban Aboriginal people.
7052 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I will come back to you, Ms Buffalo, in a second, but on the issue of competition, I
accept that you may not be in competition with them. But one way of interpreting the intervention is that they may see you as
being in competition with them the existing incumbent, well not the incumbent, but the existing native broadcaster in B.C.
1830
7053 MR. KENNEDY: I would think that is a fair inference having read the letter myself. I can't speak for them. I can't speak
for their fears or their concerns or what it is that motivates them.
7054 But if you look at the letter, I think there are a number of statements made in there that are not accurate from an urban
Aboriginal perspective and the people here in Vancouver. First both Clarence's letter and the letters we have received from
others says that there is not -- it is almost like they are saying there is just not a need for this, not a need now. And we heard in
Alberta we are going to get around to doing it some time.
7055 But Billie is the person that I would rely on in terms of information and what she shared with us. We need a national
perspective now in the urban Aboriginal community. So we are not a threat to northern native broadcasting, we are
complementary. They may see it as competitive but that would be a question to go to them but I don't think so. I think a
regional B.C. network, they are not asking for a national network license. They are not asking to do what we are doing.
7056 I will give you another example if I may. The T'suweten people, I don't speak for them, I speak of information I know
that has been shared with me by the people there, they in fact are planning a 17-community radio network for their peoples
and we have an outreach -- Aboriginal Voices Radio -- because we are in that business and they said, how can we fit in with
you and we deal with the Commission and things like that. How can you help us and how can we fit in. That is 17 communities
and the T'suweten people.
7057 So we know we are going to be complementary and not competitive. I think the mood we feel in B.C. other than
northern native broadcasting is let's work together. But we have left Clarence with that message, Marilyn has and myself, and I
got the sense that we are going to meet his interests.
7058 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Ms Buffalo.
7059 MS BUFFALO: First of all when you look at Canada and as vast as it is and the very diverse Aboriginal languages and
cultures that we have, and believe it when I say it, north, south, east and west, we are very, very distinct. I represent the Cree
Nation. Well, we have Cree people that live from British Columbia all the way into the Innu of Labrador. I speak with the Innu
and they understand me and I understand them. We are just a different dialect but we are the same linguistic group.
7060 So we have Crees, B.C., Saskatchewan, Alberta, Manitoba, Ontario, Quebec and Labrador and if I listen very closely I
also can quite understand the Mi'kmaq of Nova Scotia. That is because of my training and my background and speaking my
language.
7061 Now, having said that, we are very, very similar but we are different. There are many national issues, for instance, as a
national leader that I have had to deal with: issues of family violence, of poverty, police brutality, Aboriginal policy as it effects
our people nationally. That does not discriminate urban, rural. It just is applied equally to all, and the effect that it has on a
northern people which is different from the southern people and how do we begin to have these round table discussions.
7062 And just in the area of news alone, can I tell you how lonely and isolated one can become if you are living in an urban
environment in urban Canada as an Aboriginal Canadian. Because you don't live in the north doesn't mean that you are not
isolated. You can be as equally isolated living in downtown Ottawa and Vancouver because you don't hear those voices when
you are turning on the television and neither do your children hear these voices.
7063 I will give you another example. I personally got within 24 hours, 20 phone calls from some people I have never met that
are very concerned when they saw our children, and I repeat, our children sniffing gasoline on national television. What can we
as African women, what can we as women from Jamaica do to help in this crisis. Who do we call? These are issues that are --
I'm sorry, but they happen. It happened in Tsushushee(ph). It's happening in Alberta and British Columbia and they are real.
7064 But we are the ones that will come up with the answers and radio is one vehicle but a very important one that can help to
bridge all of us so that we can communicate, and the network is the only way we can do that. Because these northern native
broadcasters where they are stationed, in Treaty 8 up in northern Alberta and British Columbia -- I mean into British Columbia
and also NWT, they are regionally based. They don't communicate with each other as well as they should. They are not
networked. I know that from my experience in living in these communities in the Northwest Territories and northern Alberta. I
spent 12 years up there.
7065 So it is very difficult for us as northerners when we live up there to get news to the south. Our issues in the south are not
heard in the north. So it is very key, and Vancouver is very key to development of that network.
7066 MR. FARMER: Kelly has a comment as well that she wants to express.
7067 MS WHITE: I can't think that far back, I need my notes. Just kidding.
--- Laughter / Rires
7068 In celebration of the application here and support of all broadcasters, we at Co-op Radio nominated northern
broadcasting, successfully so, for a national award. We feel the esteem of all the broadcasters should be celebrated on the
local, provincial and national partnership level.
7069 As a First Nations people, right from the local to the parliamentary to the United Nations, factors of relationship with our
First Nations peoples it isn't -- our participation here is not to come and divide and conquer. It is not the way of our peoples
to have a division attitude and we celebrate all the broadcasters. Even though there may be dissention toward the application
here, we would never provide a platform against any other celebrated broadcasters that we helped.
7070 Co-op Radio helped northern broadcasting with funding from our station and we raised that funding for them until they
go their own funding. So it is not the atmosphere for partnership that we are providing here. We are celebrating an inclusive
participation east to west, north to south, rather than the annihilation of any other broadcasters.
7071 As a member of the National Radio on Campus Association, as well as the host of the AMARC, the second
international indigenous broadcasters gathering hosted by Co-op Radio, we celebrate the global community as well as the local
community on a daily basis of the professional delivery of the broadcasters. So just for clarification, we don't approach you as
jurors or commissioners to lessen any of our broadcasters, colleagues, professional abilities.
7072 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Could I just ask you, Ms White, while you have the microphone if you don't mind,
can you tell us about your program on Co-op Radio? You run a program on Co-op Radio, do you?
7073 MS WHITE: Yes. I provide the weekly public affairs. I service the music, "When Spirit Whispers." I also approached
for the proposal for the First Nations language of the Coast Salish territory and supported the others. We have seven First
Nations programs. So we like to grow like the economy. We like to --
1900
7074 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: How many hours of programming would that be in a week?
7075 MS WHITE: For a weekly basis the Institute of Indigenous Government provides education at two hours Monday. The
reservation hosts a half hour monthly. The First Nations Coast Salish program provides a one hour on a monthly basis for the
Coast Salish language learning. The public affairs for Kla-how-ya FM, which I hostess, is weekly on Thursdays.
7076 There is a hard rock music program for the mainstream hosted by Wednesday nights "When Spirit Whispers" from
midnight until 6:00 a.m. And the Metis Matters broadcasts on a bi-weekly basis for one hour, and the bi-weekly partnership
that they carry is my co-hostess drama hour and that is also bi-weekly.
7077 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So that is the bulk of the Aboriginal programming in the Vancouver area?
7078 MS WHITE: Yes, it is.
7079 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I understand Mr. Martin has a program on CHMV, which is the multicultural station.
7080 MS WHITE: I'm sorry. I couldn't hear.
7081 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Mr. Martin has a program on CHMV which is one of the multicultural stations. So
from what I gather that is the bulk of the Aboriginal programming available in Vancouver.
7082 MS WHITE: Actually I formerly produced a three-hour North, Central and South America peoples program at CITR
out of University of B.C. and celebrate the partnership also with Simon Fraser with the partnership of the NCRA. We don't
broadcast any more at UBC or SFU.
7083 MR. FARMER: One thing I would like to make note of too just to show you the amount of work that needs to be done
yet. If you look at Ontario specifically for instance in the Wawatai system, there is approximately 36 radio stations in that
system. There is 136 communities in Ontario; 36 in the north have some form of radio maybe for eight hours a day and
Wawatai services maybe three hours of original programming a week in the languages.
7084 In southern Canada there is probably eight operational stations. So if you add the 8 and the 34 that gives you like 42
communities, that is with no urban exposure at all, 42 communities out of 136 have current electronic media or radio available
in those communities.
7085 That is the effort, that there is like 90 communities in Ontario alone that have absolutely no access. Unless we can build
the kind of economy that we can with this national system, we are the ones that -- we are going to be able to assist those ones
in the middle from the northern system that has had some success or some support from the government.
7086 But the south has had nothing, and that centre portion in the country has absolutely no access and there is no
organization there working for them on behalf of them. That is the void that we are going to fill. It is in our best interest once
we are licensed and operational to outfit every reserve community with some form of FM receivership so that we can come
into the community. As well, in the local regions where those communities are moving toward for employment and education,
we need to cover those urban areas.
7087 So we have an extreme amount of -- a lot of work to do and our future is totally laid out for us for the next ten years to
radioize native Canada. I think that is the effort that we are really undertaking here.
7088 The other point I would like to make is that because the northern system is inclusive for 42 communities or so, there
might not be programming there that is befitting. For instance, there is not a level of information programming that is directed,
let's say, for diabetes which we all face as indigenous people. Incidents of 50 per cent over the age of 40 years old we face
that.
7089 If there isn't a central radio body that is producing programming on a daily basis that we will be able to do once we get
Toronto up, dealing with some of these hard core issues that we are dealing with, whether it be a teenager's sexuality, those
kinds of programming aren't necessarily going to come from the north. They are going to come from the south and they are
going to come into the northern communities and that is how we will be able to socialize each other to some of the
contemporary issues that we are facing. That is the only way that I can see.
7090 So dealing with our health issues, it is Aboriginal Voices Radio that is going to concentrate on 38 per cent spoken word
content. It is going to develop this kind of programming that we can distribute across the country and that is the value of
Aboriginal Voices Radio Network.
7091 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Can we move to some other marketing issues? Audience share, in the August 4th
deficiency, page 194 of the record, you have indicated that you anticipate an audience share of 0.3 to 1.0 from year one
through seven. I am just wondering if that is realistic, optimistic, conservative?
7092 MR. FARMER: Yes. Mr. Mark MacLeod has got an answer for you there.
1915
7093 MR. MacLEOD: We had a survey done from Mr. Doering of Peter Doering Consultants to check and see what kind of
a reception we thought that a national Aboriginal radio service would receive in cities across Canada; 1,500 people were
surveyed in a relatively short period of time in that survey time.
7094 Based on Mr. Doering's experience in taking the responses to very specific questions, he produced a prediction that we
would look at seeing about a one per cent market share in Vancouver based on the interest in this market in that part of the
survey, which I understand was about, out of the 1,500, about 150 of the responses were in the Vancouver market.
7095 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Are you anticipating a share or listenership from a non-Aboriginal population here?
7096 MR. MacLEOD: Yes. Our experience with native programming that exists, and there is not that much in urban centres is
that there is a fair amount of interest of non-native listeners. Certainly the market research that we did through Peter Doering
Consultants indicated a widespread interest of non-native urban population in the type of programming that we were offering.
7097 Of course, I think it was mentioned earlier on in response to one of your questions that there is a tremendous amount of
anecdotal evidence which you can see it when you look at our table, a lot of that anecdotal evidence right here, that the interest
is incredibly strong. The Commission has received a number of applications from Aboriginal voices that it has considered.
7098 Clearly in Vancouver the response is totally overwhelming. I mean you have to be impressed by the level of interest in
this application and support from the diversity of communities that make up this urban centre.
7099 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Let me ask about revenues. In your revenues you have projected the national
revenues as a portion to the Vancouver market, you have slated at $90,000 a year from year one through year seven. How do
you calculate that? Would that be sales in Vancouver or sales from Toronto that somehow you are apportioning to
Vancouver?
7100 MR. MacLEOD: The response to that question is that the $90,000 that you see allocated to the Vancouver operation is
simply the portion of national sales revenue that will be taken to Vancouver to cover the operating costs in Vancouver. The
real prediction of how much of our national -- how our national sales will be impacted by having a Vancouver station is a
different matter than at 90,000.
7101 In fact, our consultation with a number of national sales rep houses has indicated that we should expect about an
additional third increase in advertising, in national advertising revenue by adding Vancouver to a Toronto/Vancouver network
operation. The calculation of our total national advertising revenue is in fact based on an increase of about a fifth rather than a
third so we were playing the conservative. The total amount of advertising over seven years with Toronto and Vancouver both
licensed and operating would be about $350,000 a year.
7102 Again, those same sales rep houses that we consulted with said that we could expect to generate with a Toronto and
Vancouver licensed operation anywhere between as low as half a million year up to a million and a half a year in national sales
alone. Again, the figure we are using in our business plan is $350,000 a year with those two stations licensed. So it is a
deliberate conservative approach.
7103 COMMISSIONER CORDOZO: I thought it was curious that you would apportion $90,000 a year throughout the
seven year period rather than perhaps undergoing on a growing basis as you did with the local advertising and fundraising
which is at $15,000 in the first year and works its way up to $35,000 in year seven which would seem to be what one would
expect that you do start low and then have the opportunity to grow.
7104 MR. MacLEOD: Yes, the figures that you see for fundraising are more accurate, a portion of the expected revenue to
Vancouver. In other words, those numbers going from $15,000 in the first year to $35,000 in year seven are -- we have a lot
more expertise in our group in the area of fundraising and predicting what kind of fundraising revenue we can expect because
this type of radio, this non-profit community-type radio has 15 or 20 years of experience in Canada in major markets in doing
fundraising from a somewhat similar audience to what we expect this station to have.
7105 Whereas there is not a lot of experience in predicting how much advertising revenue could be generated by a service like
that. I mean on a national Aboriginal radio network how are you going to predict how much ads you can get. So what you see
in setting out for the fundraising are numbers that we, from our experience, feel very comfortable that those will be attained.
7106 The advertising network revenue as allocated to Vancouver are simply the amount that we would have to take out of our
total national advertising budget to cover the costs of operating a Vancouver station. The rest of the money above $90,000
that we would pull in will be used to build the national network in the two areas that we have outlined, which is to expand our
local programming and of course to expand network stations in other major urban centres across Canada.
7107 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. Let me ask you a couple of, at least three, fairly tougher questions on this
because I am trying to get as much precision as possible. As I said at the beginning, one of the reasons we go through this
questioning procedure is that we are charged with apportioning frequencies and we have to make sure that those frequencies,
once given out, are maintained and people stay in business.
7108 So let me first just ask you based -- like you have provided a certain amount of information to us in the application. I am
wondering if you have any updates on that in terms of any hard money that you either have in the bank or have assurances.
You have talked about advertising agents, whether you have national buys, whether you have had discussions, letters, anything
that can give us more assurance that the kind of potential that you have just outlined is on the way to getting realized.
7109 I understand that, of course, it is easier to do that once you have the license in hand, but as you know with our process,
it is sort of the chicken and egg thing. If we hand a license to somebody who doesn't have that basis, then does the radio get
launched.
7110 So I wonder if you can give us any more precision, either by companies. I am well aware of what NewCap has
provided to the network flowing from the Moncton decision, and I am wondering if you have any more precision?
7111 MR. KENNEDY: I wonder if I might briefly because I am not the expert in this area but I have wanted to make a
couple of points.
7112 One, we are engaged in an ongoing fundraising project, which is in fact we are meeting with First Nations Aboriginal
representatives, either community and business who have expressed -- these parties have expressed an interest, an excited
interest. But as you have said yourself, the reality is we don't have the approval of either the network license. We don't have
Calgary. We don't have Vancouver. We do have Toronto.
7113 So there is an expressed interest in that and we are confident about a number of things. If we get those licensing of
course the fundraising will come in hand. As well, if we had the monies that NewCap would provide, certainly we could see in
kind amounts of money coming from the people we have spoken with in the Aboriginal community.
7114 I don't know if this would be helpful to share with you, one of our sources of expertise and great knowledge in the area
of raising revenues and advertising is a gentleman who we have a close association with, whose history is in this area and it is
Bob Templeton who sits with us because he is a partner, but also his level of sales and revenue generation expertise, and I
don't speak for him, but he is here and certainly can shed light on projections and anticipated amounts we could see if that
would be of some use.
7115 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Sure.
7116 MR. TEMPLETON: Commissioner, I am not certain. I was trying to follow, was it the fund raising or the revenue --
7117 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: The fund raising and the advertising revenue, to what extent there are any specifics,
any commitments that you have and that AVR has in hand. I am aware of the funding that NewCap has made available to date
through the Moncton decision.
7118 As I said earlier, in terms of the NewCap application at this hearing, it is a separate issue that we are not dealing with
here. I don't want you to pass out, Mr. Templeton, but we haven't approved your application in NewCap as yet, so we have
to pretend like that doesn't exist or may not be approved.
7119 To what extent does AVR have funding sources above and beyond what NewCap has made fairly clear commitments?
7120 MR. KENNEDY: I think that I wouldn't ask Mr. Templeton to speak on behalf of that. That is something that Mr.
MacLeod would speak to.
7121 What I was suggesting was -- you had a two-part question, I believe, and advertising generated moneys is what I
believe, and Bob has that expertise. So I was not asking him to speak on perhaps the moneys that are currently in-house.
7122 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay.
7123 MR. TEMPLETON: Commissioner, I can assure the Commission that these revenue projections with Toronto and
Vancouver are very realistic. We consulted with some experts in the area. I myself, personally, have quite a bit of experience
in national representation. I ran a major national rep shop for a while about a decade ago.
7124 We spoke with Canadian Broadcast Sales, we spoke with Target Broadcast Sales, and their expert opinion was that
these numbers were very conservative numbers that we could rely on.
7125 An analogy I can give is that you can't just look at share and try to project that into revenue, because this is a very
unique application. You are selling kind of an environment. Many corporations are asked to make donations, and they get a
donation and some goodwill and some signage or something, but that is kind of what they get.
7126 With this kind of sponsorship they get all of that, plus they get commercial advertising of their products on a national
basis -- in this case Toronto and Vancouver to start. But the numbers are very realistic and they should not have any problem
at all achieving these levels. They are very modest.
7127 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: The point you are making about the environment plus the advertising bang for the
buck is something that, evidently, you at NewCap believe in. What I am asking is: Is it your sense that there are other potential
advertisers out there who share the same approach?
7128 MR. TEMPLETON: My comments, when I was referring to national advertisers, with this kind of an application, the
way it is viewed is, do you want to associate with this environment?
7129 An analogy is sports broadcasting, as an example, with professional hockey or baseball teams. If you look at the share
and look at the revenue, they are two different numbers and they don't correlate that much. It is: "I want to be part of that
environment. I want to be part of that."
7130 I think that a lot of the emphasis on the sales approach will be: Do you want to speak to the Aboriginal community of
Canada, versus how many average quarter-hour shares you are getting.
7131 Either way, whether you look at share or whether you look at the environment, these numbers are modest, in my
opinion.
7132 MR. KENNEDY: Commissioner, if I may, for me it always helps to look at a practical scenario. If the Aboriginal
Voices Radio Network were up and running, this is an example of a national advertisement that would be a natural for us. I
will give you a recent example.
7133 As you know, the Corbiere decision from the Supreme Court of Canada kicked in November 20th. Prior to that, a
couple of weeks ago -- actually, I believe, we were appearing before you in Calgary -- Indian and Northern Affairs Canada,
the Government of Canada, launched a national advertising campaign to reach our target audience, because it has to do with
urban Aboriginal peoples' voting rights in their communities.
7134 We have had conversations with not only Indian Affairs, but the Privy Council Office, Heritage Canada and others, as
well as at the provincial level and local level. Governments -- I don't speak for them; I am giving you anecdotal comment here
-- are champing at the bit to see a national Aboriginal urban focused radio where they can target their moneys. Because now,
essentially, it goes to mainstream broadcasters, where our people aren't necessarily the target audience.
7135 So we know there is practical application for that. I don't know if that is helpful, but it is an example.
7136 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Yes, it is.
7137 We are getting to the end and I want to move to the technical issue, the frequency issue.
7138 As you know, Simon Fraser Campus Radio has also applied for 90.9. Have you considered an alternate frequency for
yourself, or for them?
7139 MR. FARMER: Mr. Matthews will answer that.
7140 MR. MATTHEWS: Certainly, we have considered all of the frequencies in the Vancouver market. We think we have
the opportunity to license up to six applicants at this hearing. We think that 90.9 suits our needs the best, because we are
applying for --
7141 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I'm sorry, could I ask you to speak a little closer to the microphone?
7142 With six frequencies, I want to make sure I get this answer down.
7143 MR. MATTHEWS: I can run them down to you. We have 88.1, 90.1, 90.9, 92.3, 94.5 and 106.9.
7144 Now, of those six, you have seen two applied for at this hearing, the 94.5, of course, and the 90.9, which has been
applied for by Aboriginal Voices Radio and by Simon Fraser.
7145 We have applied for close to maximum Class B parameters on 90.9, which gives us coverage of the entire Vancouver
CMA; whereas Simon Fraser has applied at considerably lower parameters. For that reason we believe it would be easier to
find them an alternative frequency, and in fact we looked at 90.1. It looks like it suits the requirements for duplicating the
coverage area that they had proposed for 90.9.
7146 We would be happy to share all of our findings with their consultant and provide them with all of the information that we
have on that frequency. But it is not the only alternative frequency to 90.9 that might be suitable for Simon Fraser.
7147 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And if you were not to be granted 90.9, which of these others would you be --
7148 MR. MATTHEWS: I would say the second choice would be 106.9 or 107.1.
7149 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. Back to the Simon Fraser issue, you are competing with them. They are
providing a local service, which is totally locally based, or almost totally.
7150 Can I take you back to the issue of local that we talked about many hours ago and ask why you think yours is a better fit
than theirs, if we are to look at you as competitors for 90.9?
1930
7151 MR. KENNEDY: If I may make a brief comment in answer to that. I first preface my remarks by saying that Aboriginal
people have no intention of seeing -- I realize that this is a competitive process from your vantage point and your perspective,
and it is in some respects, technically and otherwise.
7152 The Aboriginal community, of course, has a great regard for Co-op Radio and what these people do in the community.
We would like to state that. Certainly John and others have established relationships with them on behalf of Aboriginal Voices
Radio.
7153 We believe, first and foremost, about our own needs, and we believe the urban Aboriginal community in Vancouver, first
and foremost, should have access to the best frequency that is available to provide the best coverage area, because of all the
reasons you have heard here today from our people.0
7154 I also believe that Mr. Matthews, who works on our behalf, as well as on our partner's behalf, works specifically on
behalf of AVR to share this information with you and other broadcasters, specifically, in the best of intentions of resolving and
meeting the interests of all those parties. Our intention is to do that.
7155 But we think we should have the better frequency that we have put forward on our own behalf. As John has said, the
alternate frequency for them can meet their needs.
7156 MR. FARMER: Our goal is to provide 20 to 30 hours per week of local programming by the end of our licence term.
As resources become available, of course, we will start with the weekday morning show and local news, and our Vancouver
media advisors will provide the guidance.
7157 But, of course, with the $4.2 million from NewCap, we will be able to roll this out much faster and expand the network.
That is really the issue.
7158 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: You realize that one of the difficulties -- and Billie Pierre was saying earlier: Why not
two Aboriginal stations down the road? It is not clear to us how many of these frequencies are actually workable or how much
people would actually want them. So at the end of the day, given the competition for frequencies, if there is one in Vancouver,
we want to make sure it is a really good one.
7159 So the difficulty I have with your answer -- and I fully understand where it is coming from -- is that if we say yes to AVR
now and a year down the road or six months down the road Northern Native comes along and says, "What about us, too?",
and there is not a frequency, then we may not have that option.
7160 MS PIERRE: I think that a national connection would be the best. A national communication connection would be the
best for all the communities in Canada.
7161 MR. KENNEDY: Commissioner, if I may also remind ourselves, with respect and gratitude, you met Chief Williams
today. But we also have support for our business plan and for what we are planning to do and for what Billie is suggesting
from the United Native Nations, representing urban Aboriginal people, the Union of B.C. Indian Chiefs, the B.C. First Nations
Summit. These are organizations which represent absolutely every First Nation in this province, who endorse our plan.
7162 The Vancouver Aboriginal Council, the Métis Association of Vancouver -- the list is overwhelming. I am sure,
Commissioners, you have seen the letters of support, the petitions of support, from both the Aboriginal and non-aboriginal
community.
7163 We believe we have come to you with a good product that has support.
7164 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. Back to 90.9, one of the problems, Mr. Matthews and Mr. Kennedy, is that
you said this is the better frequency, but there is one small little problem. Somebody doesn't want you to have that either.
7165 As you know, there has been an intervention by CBC, the FM Victoria signal, which is concerned that that signal would
interfere with theirs and that the only way it would not interfere is if you took it down in power.
7166 What is your response? And at which point is it not the 90.9 that we have been talking about?
7167 MR. MATTHEWS: In fact, the 90.9 we are talking about here, even at the reduced parameters that the CBC would
prefer, is still considerably more coverage than is proposed by Simon Fraser.
7168 Now, on the other hand, we have had an ongoing discussion with CBC regarding the interference issue and we think we
are very close to a resolution. We have developed a test protocol that they have accepted, and we believe that we will be able
to go on the air at the reduced power, and then, by increasing in stages, prove to the CBC that the interference issue is in fact
a non-issue.
7169 We are talking about two stations which are two channels apart. The protection ratio contained within the rules is
somewhat outdated with regard to modern radios. So in fact we are confident that if there is any interference developed to the
signal of CBC, we will be able to remedy that interference very quickly.
7170 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So you would take it down to 300 watts for a start?
7171 MR. MATTHEWS: Yes.
7172 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Then, the reason you would up it is to see, bit by bit, whether it does have
interference?
7173 MR. MATTHEWS: If at 300 watts there is interference beyond the protected contour of the CBC service, we will have
a good handle on what interference might take place when we do increase that power. The CBC has accepted this argument.
7174 We believe that we will be able to get it to full parameters within a short period. We want to do that to the CBC's
satisfaction and to the satisfaction of Industry Canada.
7175 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: At 300 watts, how much does that cover in terms of territory? Is it not a lot less than
what you had planned?
7176 MR. MATTHEWS: No, it is not a lot less. The relationship between area of coverage, or distance, and power is not a
linear relationship. In fact, you have to go to something like a 10th of the power at the same height to significantly reduce the
area, and, in fact, at full parameters we were looking at a coverage area of two million people, of which about 90 per cent
were contained within the three millivolt contour, and by reducing the power to one-quarter, as requested by the CBC, we
would only lose something like 15 to 20 per cent of that coverage, which is within the three millivolt and within the half millivolt
contour.
7177 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So your financial projections, your advertising, is not affected by this?
7178 MR. MATTHEWS: The business case would still be robust at the lower parameters.
7179 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Can you tell me why you didn't simply apply for a repeater licence?
7180 I'm sorry, not a repeater licence, but why you didn't apply to have your Toronto licence amended to simply allow a
rebroadcast in this area. Why do you prefer to have a station based here, especially since, at the starting end, you are going to
be doing re-broad from Toronto?
7181 It is a different question, I guess, that I am jumping to.
7182 MR. MacLEOD: I will try to answer the question.
7183 I think that our intention, right from the beginning, has been that the service in Vancouver will be more than a straight
repeater service, that in fact local programming will develop as resources become available.
7184 And as you have heard in our presentation today, there is certainly one way in which that could happen very quickly, and
that is, if you choose to licence NewCap in this licence hearing, we will have a lot of funding available to immediately execute
an increase in local programming.
7185 But, otherwise, as resources become available we will build the local programming service here.
7186 Our intention always was that there would be different programming on different stations that we licence in different
markets. So we, right off the top, came out of the gate with that type of licensing strategy.
7187 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Let me ask you, as a closing summarizing question: I would like you to summarize
your thoughts about why you should be licensed, keeping in mind at least these two questions that I have in mind. Number
one, does Vancouver need an Aboriginal station now? And I think you have said yes very clearly. And if yes, what is the best
way of going about it? Is it to licence AVR, or is it to wait for perhaps a subsequent application, or to have two competing
applications, or a joint application between you and others?
7188 What would stand the test of time and last financially?
7189 MR. FARMER: I am sorry, can you repeat --
7190 MR. KENNEDY: Commissioner, maybe I could answer. If I am hearing you correctly, this is summation time, and we
were going to request that we individually provide you with very brief comments.
7191 It is interesting that your two points are -- well, one anyway. We were not actually really considering it in the technical
terms you are, about your choice between one or two services.
7192 But if we could do that briefly --
7193 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Sure, go ahead.
7194 MR. KENNEDY: I would like, first, to go to Cleo, and then we will come back around to myself and then over the
other way. If Cleo could start...
7195 MS REECE: Hi. With respect to your question earlier about local broadcasting resources, that unquestionably is here.
We have that. We have the experience.
7196 If you look at Kelly, for instance, she is our longest running radio producer in this province.
7197 I have been doing my show, "Hastings Reserve", for five and a half years, and similarly so has Ron Barber over at
Co-op Radio -- two programs.
7198 We also have a pool of rising young talent. We have Billie right in front of us here. If you look around, you will see --
7199 Just to let you know, our audience today included a lot of local talent, be they performers or writers, actors and so on.
7200 We are a close-knit community of artistic people, encompassing all of the different artistic disciplines, but we all share a
passion for putting our work out there. Whether it is on radio or video, television or whatever, we are going to use those
resources if they are available to us, and they are.
7201 The other thing I would like to say is that with the success of our Aboriginal Film and Video Festival, and with the
longstanding programming that has been going on through Vancouver Co-operative Radio, the five of them that Kelly named
earlier, five Aboriginal programs -- or six of them -- we feel that we have developed an audience which increases year by
year, which is informed, critical and appreciative of the work we are doing.
7202 It was also said that we have upwards of 100,000 native people living in Vancouver in the lower mainland, which is a
huge audience. But it also involves others than an Aboriginal audience. We have a lot of non-Aboriginal people who are
interested in what we have to say, and the kind of talent that we have. They are very interested in hearing about it.
7203 I would like to leave you with those thoughts, and to let you know that, yes, we do have resources here within our
people resources. Thank you.
1945
7204 MS WARD: Hi. I would like to speak to this both personally as a Cree Métis grandmother and also professionally as a
health care consultant and a youth and child fatality investigator for this province.
7205 The health of our people in this province, as you know, is the worst in this country. In fact, in Vancouver, and most
particularly the Downtown Eastside, it is clearly visible and very upsetting.
7206 We know -- and I will bang the drum again and say what we all know -- that there is a longstanding need for healing, a
need for greater understanding of our history and what has happened to us, and better communication, not only between
ourselves as Aboriginal peoples, but between the two worlds, both native and non-native.
7207 I speak to this, again, personally because I am a Métis woman, so I walk in both worlds, both native and non-native,
personally and professionally.
7208 An elder once told me that a way to make the world better is to start building bridges, to start with myself, to become a
bridge between those two worlds and to share the information that I have from being raised in a non-native family, but also to
help build bridges between the two worlds, and, again, between ourselves: rural, urban, status, non-status, Métis, Innuit.
7209 Traditionally we are an oral society. This radio station would have a ripple effect. It would start here in the urban area of
Vancouver, but, undoubtedly, it would ripple out to our rural communities, to our children and to our elders; again building that
bridge between them all.
7210 It would be a vehicle to improve our health and our wellness.
7211 We talked about balance. Someone questioned it, and said that we need some balance. This would be a way to improve
that balance.
7212 Does Vancouver need an Aboriginal radio station? Without a doubt.
7213 Someone said that if we are going to have one -- I think it was you, Commissioner Cardozo -- it needs to be a really
good one. I believe we can make it a really good one. Meegwich.
7214 MR. DEMARAIS: I want to tell you a bit about the community that I am here representing today, and the community in
which I work. If you ever come across the postal code V6A, you will know that to be the poorest community in Canada. That
has been the case for at least the 10 years I have been involved in trying to provide some health services to people in the
Downtown Eastside.
7215 A tremendous number of those people happen to be First Nations people. So we have a high concentration of First
Nations people within Canada's poorest community.
7216 Sometimes when we are trying to talk to people out in the greater world, it is almost like we have been totally isolated
within that community; totally isolated by the poverty in which we have to live.
7217 So I see this opportunity as finally a way in which we can, with more depth than we are currently allowed, express what
is actually happening, to get that across, and also to use those opportunities that would be availed to us around the issues of
some of the more explosive issues for our people.
7218 We have people dying daily of HIV-related disease. Tuberculosis is at an all-time high in the Downtown Eastside, to the
point where the public health authorities are now suggesting that everyone who lives down there not get a skin test, but a chest
X-ray. We have put our entire staff through that. We know of other organizations down there that have done that, and so on
and so forth.
7219 I think if we had a way of reaching our people, we could perhaps assist in the educational process that is so needed.
Thank you very much.
7220 MS RIVERS: Good evening. Thank you for acknowledging earlier being in the traditional Coast Salish territory. Part of
our Chiawial (ph), our Aboriginal law, that we always practise as First Nations people, is to respect and honour the people of
the area. So I would like to thank you for that.
7221 As was shared, not only is it important to have this station for the Aboriginal people, but also in Vancouver there are
many non-native people who are very interested in First Nations culture, especially with college and university students who
may be doing their studies or theses on First Nations people in the B.C. area, or throughout Canada. This would also help
educate them on who we are and our history.
7222 There are also foster and adoptive parents out there of Aboriginal children. I have had the experience of meeting some,
and have some co-workers who do some work, travelling throughout B.C., educating the children who are with non-native
foster parents. They want to keep that step and that door open for the children.
7223 Not only that, but there are many cultures from around the world that want to learn more about the First Nations culture
and about being on our territory. What better way to share our pride, humour, history and respect, while hosting many
nationalities of the world as well?
7224 I would like to close with something that came to mind from one of my classes that I did in my First Nations studies:
With my identity I move forward; With my society I live on;
With my culture I respect.
7225 Hosiem (native language spoken).
7226 MS WHITE: It is hard to follow good speakers like that.
7227 In celebration of our broadcasters for the development of a partnership with Gary Farmer, we don't support him
because he is the cutest guy in the east, or the best movie star, or the one we wait for on television programming; we support
him because he and his colleagues, and partners, have broken ground on various levels of communications for indigenous
peoples, and for the respect of our partners who reside in our territories.
7228 Since being approached by Mr. Farmer, in a very respectful attitude of the territories and boundaries of the requirement
for dialogue to the mainstream to best address the information deemed necessary to be good partners in our beautiful country,
we canvassed throughout British Columbia, Alberta and Saskatchewan, from Kla-how-ya FM, to platform our partnership
with human rights issues, education issues, family issues, right down to social fields of the arts and performing.
7229 There was great celebration of this endeavour in years back. Even though we are slowly, gradually, taking one tiny baby
step at a time, having been approached by us, we learned that one-third of the country's native peoples reside within British
Columbia.
7230 To support AVR's application would enhance the ability of the national mainstream listenership to celebrate our rounding
of the decade of indigenous people's, whom we ourselves at Kla-how-ya FM implemented through the United Nations.
7231 Our youth programs, as well as elders, have been sponsored to Central America for our youth programmers. Our
elderly programmers have been provided the visibility to teach our language, to combat, in essence, the racism and lack of
understanding toward our people.
7232 We also maintain a 24-year agreement for peace education with Kla-how-ya FM and Co-op Radio; with a 24-year
agreement with the 12 Asia-Pacific countries, which, by us teachers, we agreed to combat racism and war, which is very
crucial for us as broadcasters, to lend our diversity of national native broadcasters to a partnership with the mainstream public.
7233 My belief as a broadcaster -- I would like to share my vision statement or mandate from Kla-how-ya FM with the
AVR's application. Our vision is to create balance, via unity and harmony and peace for all of our communities, by our
participation in our community endeavours. Our belief as broadcasters is to create unity, in essence, of the wealth of our
diversity that we could deliver to and with the mainstream to make ourselves a stronger, united country, as diverse as we are
with our languages, with the mainstream and the international community, that may listen and partner with our broadcasts.
7234 We appeal for support for Gary Farmer's endeavours. As in starting, our vision without action is merely a dream; and
action without vision just passes the time. Vision with action can change the world, and we invite you, as the Commissioners,
to create this awesome partnership with the mainstream and the indigenous in the best interests of education for social and
economic -- a better lifestyle for all.
7235 Patience with your time, I thank you for your listenership.
7236 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I just want to tell you, Ms White, that I am quite familiar with Gary Farmer's acting
career. In fact, I starred with him in a movie. You might not recognize me because he was a great actor and I was in a crowd
of about 3,000 people. But I was there.
7237 MS WHITE: Congratulations. We are still waiting in line for that. A one-in-3,000 opportunity.
7238 MR. KENNEDY: Commissioners, I have had the privilege of working in broadcasting most of my life, and being behind
a microphone, in a different context of course, and obviously there is something about radio that is pretty special. Really what it
is is that we share information, we share perspective, and we share context. So I will share some information with you that I
believe you have not heard, and certainly, if you have heard it, you haven't heard it through your mainstream media or the
media that we rely on.
7239 I have had an opportunity in the last two years to work with people such as Joy Ward and others here in community
work, because of our children and our families. I know you are familiar with the "sixties scoop". I know that because it is a
terminology that came around from mainstream, because of media guys like me who like phraseology and buzzwords. It really
meant, as the Australians call it, the stolen generations -- ourselves, who were taken from our homes and put into foster care.
7240 The information I am going to share with you, Chairman and Commissioners, is from here in Vancouver. At least, if not
more than, 50 per cent of the children who are in the care of the Ministry of Children and Families in the province of British
Columbia are Aboriginal. In Prince George it is 67 per cent. In Prince Rupert it is almost 100 per cent.
7241 This is not information that you will hear on the CBC, and it is not information that you will hear from the mainstream
media, because we are isolated and our information is isolated from them. And they don't care, with respect.
7242 I have spent my life mostly in non-Aboriginal mainstream media and I know that we are only now breaking through in
our information. So that is one piece of information that I will share with you.
7243 Now I am going to share a piece of information with you from a non-aboriginal person in your world, a highly respected
man, Michael Chandler, from the University of British Columbia.
7244 Michael shared with me personally and allowed me to use this information on behalf of our people over the last couple of
years. He did a study on suicide. It is not a nice topic. It is not a topic we like to discuss, but it is one we need to discuss
amongst all of the other topics that Lou and others have shared with you today.
7245 Michael Chandler's study was about Aboriginal people, First Nations people, specifically First Nations youth. Our youth
are in peril and in danger of this particular activity of suicide. So his study went into it. He found what I believe is information
that is very important and relevant to why we are here today.
7246 The communities that he went into and studied where there was cultural restoration, where there was self-determination,
where there were efforts under way to bring back the culture of those communities, the rate of suicide with our young people
plummeted. There were some examples in his study -- and it is available to you -- of absolutely zero in the communities where
there was the strength of self-determination, self-government, and cultural restoration and renewal.
7247 Our elders have told us this. They tell us always: Get in touch with your traditions. We need to do this. But this is
information coming from the non-Aboriginal world at the University of British Columbia.
7248 His study focused on our people. The message that I got out of that -- and I asked him if I could use this message in
spreading the word through the Aboriginal community through the Web site -- was: Save culture; save lives.
7249 Here I go again, a media guy looking for quick phraseologies, but we need to simplify, and radio is the business of trying
to communicate quickly and easily.
7250 He said yes. Save culture; save lives.
7251 How does Aboriginal Voices Radio tie into that? I think you have heard from Joy and others that if we had this radio, if
we could share these messages, if we could share the solutions, not just the crisis and everything, but if we could share the
solutions and help restore the culture and bring it back, we actually could help save lives.
7252 This is information that I share with you, and I believe this is the kind of information that would be on Aboriginal Voices
Radio, which would help not only identify the problems, but identify to mainstream people and media that there are solutions.
7253 It is what we are saying. We are saying: Allow us to be self-determining for the express purpose of bringing back
languages and cultures, and things like that, and to save our youth.
2000
7254 MS PIERRE: The urban native population in the south, in Vancouver, is mostly under the age of 25.
7255 These are some things I really want to share with you.
7256 In Vancouver there are a lot of native youth who are very focused on multimedia and who have received training. There
aren't enough jobs going around. A lot of these people need the support and encouragement to further develop their talent and
skills. These people are willing to provide quality media coverage of native issues that just isn't provided in mainstream media.
7257 A national Aboriginal radio station would help these youth in striving for their goals to support and provide news and arts
and entertainment information to the native communities in Canada.
7258 In the inter-tribal urban community of Vancouver there are lots of brilliant people who have valuable knowledge,
opinions and wisdom to share. Their words are gifts to everyone, which everyone needs to hear.
7259 Also, with what he was talking about, I find that working with a lot of young people, being young myself, a lot of us find
our biggest inspiration in each other. So it is really important that our voices be heard and that we start empowering other
people to find their own voices and to start talking.
7260 There is no shortage of fresh talent in Vancouver. There is a healthy urban music scene. A lot of native youth are emcees
and are into rap and hip-hop. These aren't really promoted, and I think there are a lot of people who could be launching their
careers.
7261 Also, I would like to say that there are huge urban music scenes -- urban native music scenes -- in Winnipeg and also in
Edmonton, and to be linking these together could be starting a whole new music industry, which could be useful to Canada in
general.
7262 If they are linked through Aboriginal Voices, this could launch the career of the artist, while having a major impact on the
lifestyles of native youth all over Canada through inspiration and finding that pride. I think that would be really inspiring for
people.
7263 Aboriginal Voices Radio would provide all Canadians a chance to see native people in a light other than the popular
Hollywood Indian stereotype. Right now in mainstream media native people and their actions are often portrayed in an
ignorant and unclear light because of the overall lack of understanding of where native people are really coming from.
7264 If there were a service that could share the points of view of native people in this country, that would promote
understanding and clarity, this could be of benefit to everyone.
7265 MS BUFFALO: Thank you.
7266 Commissioners, I am very encouraged by the team that we were able to assemble to present before you the proposal
that we have to launch; I think what is known to be an unknown -- the unknown. And it is fearful.
7267 Other people have told us that we won't succeed because we don't have the money or we don't have the experience,
but, believe me, the one thing we do have, especially as native women --
7268 If you notice, the majority of the people on this panel are female. We have a very strong will to survive. And we will
make it. I absolutely have nothing but full commitment to this initiative nationwide.
7269 I see the need. There is no way that we can fail. Why should one be afraid to fail? We should not be afraid to do that.
7270 I believe that one of the most difficult things that you can do as a national leader in this country is to try to get some
money from the resources that are here in this province. If you can believe it, this is one of the richest communities, and I
would say it is the most cosmopolitan in North America. Yet it is impossible to shake loose $300 for a native woman to leave
the Vancouver detox centre to go home to her community in Saskatchewan, because the Vancouver detox centre does not
have that kind of money, the social services in this province do not have that kind of money, and neither do the feds. They are
very happy just keeping us in poverty.
7271 I say that because I have tried, and I did that exactly last week.
7272 I believe that if we are successful in garnering the partnerships, that we successfully will have once our licence is
approved, and NewCap's licence is approved, we can move forward together. They have given us the commitment that they
will teach us, and that we also will teach them some things that are very valuable.
7273 I don't believe going into the new millennium, the year 2001, that we should be expected to always be on the same page,
singing the same song; that we should not have disagreements.
7274 We all develop differently. We have very controversial issues in our midst. And we have also the number one right -- the
only right that we have left in this country, which is our freedom to speak freely. That is the only thing we have left, ladies and
gentlemen, and we need that in order to move forward.
7275 We also need to have true native content on the airwaves. Our children are starving. I have conducted consultations,
conferences, conventions across this country over the last 30 years, and the number one thing that our children ask for is the
right to speak freely, and the right to learn their language, the right to learn their culture.
7276 On the other hand, if you have -- and I have done this, and I have the documentation to prove it -- if you have an elders
conference, it doesn't matter where it is conducted, it is nationwide. What is their number one concern? Their number one
concern is youth and the rate that children are dying in the communities, urban and rural, and northern isolated.
7277 This is a vehicle that will bridge the two groups, the elders and the youth, and only then will we move forward in a
healthy fashion.
7278 Also, I want to say that, as we speak, the Toronto community is hosting, throughout North America, in the SkyDome
might I add, one of the largest festivals in this country. They are also hosting the Canadian Aboriginal Music Awards, what are
the Aboriginal Junos -- every category, from the traditional to the modern contemporary. Our people are celebrating today
and all of this weekend.
7279 Many of us could only dream that our children would one day be on stage at that time, and in the next 10 or 15 years
that is what will happen.
7280 I have been involved in education for 30 years. We still have a long way to go.
7281 I was raised in a boarding school. The one thing that they could not do was shut me up, because I absolutely refused.
And I will not ever be quiet. That is the only thing I had left as a child.
7282 The new era -- we are now moving into the sciences, into the maths -- we are going into high tech, the same as any
other child that is put on this planet.
7283 Our children will succeed, but it will only be with the vehicles, and radio is only one of them.
7284 I plead with you to please give us the right to express ourselves, our freedom of speech. Thank you very much.
7285 MR. FARMER: Thank you very much for all of the time you have given to us today. Thank you very much for the
television network that you gave us a few months ago, or a few years ago. I realize that it still costs us $39.95 to get to it.
7286 This is the last opportunity for us to get a licence --
7287 THE CHAIRPERSON: Maybe $18.95, if you don't take all of those packages. You can get it on basic.
7288 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: It's because you are getting TSN; that's why.
7289 MR. FARMER: But realize, of course, that this is the last free medium for us. It is the medium that is most accessible to
the people. It is our medium; it is the oral medium.
7290 I am astounded by the decision that you have to make, because, in your hands, the five of you can literally fund this
operation for seven years -- the first seven years of operation -- with the right decision. You would put it on a path and there
would be no turning back. That would be very beneficial for the country.
7291 I know that you will make the right decision. With that, I thank you all for the time, and we look forward to a positive
decision. (Native language spoken.)
--- Applause / Applaudissements
7292 THE CHAIRPERSON: I have a fairly mundane question, after all of those eloquent remarks. However, sometimes my
work is mundane, as I guess all of ours is from time to time.
7293 I wanted to clarify, with respect to the programming that is now being produced locally on Co-op Radio, are you
proposing that that programming would go on the network?
7294 What I am trying to get a sense of is if there is any existing radio broadcasting that you are planning --
7295 I know that Commissioner Cardozo talked to you about it, but I just wasn't sure if that might be some of the
programming that would go on the network.
7296 MR. FARMER: Yes, for sure. Any programming that is produced in the country, either relations that we have --
7297 I mean, there are programmers that I got started at Queen's University ten years ago who are still there, the same
programmers. They only got better with time. So we are going to turn to them, see what they are up to, and help shape their
programming to fit a national audience. That is in our best interest.
7298 THE CHAIRPERSON: The reason I am asking is -- and I don't know how many of you know, but I am the
Commissioner for British Columbia and it is with respect to all of the applications that are before us. It is a very big concern of
mine, to ensure that there is a sensitivity to that piece. And certainly the urban native piece is a very important piece.
7299 So I really want to make sure that when we talk about this --
7300 The proposal, as it has come to us, does not require any programming to be originated out of British Columbia or
Vancouver. In other words, you have a lot of very good intentions, and I don't doubt them, and I don't doubt your will and the
talent that is here. None of that is an issue for me. Nor do I think any of us question the importance of having Aboriginal radio.
I think all of us share that. The question is: What is the best way to do it? Is this the best proposal?
7301 One of the things that is really important -- and, for me, it is to understand that if in fact NewCap isn't licensed, if in fact
your corporate partner -- that doesn't happen -- to what extent will you be able, and when, to put on some programming?
7302 Let's put aside the issue of local programming for a minute and talk about programming that originated -- is relevant to
this community. This is why -- and I don't want to go on and on about it. We could maybe talk about it partly at another
phase. But this is why I am saying, if some exists for Co-op Radio and is being produced, is there a supply of programming
already here in this market that would be appropriate for the network, so that there would be some things that could be done
that wouldn't require perhaps production budgets and that sort of thing.
7303 MR. FARMER: Yes, there is. There is programming like this all across the country.
7304 In fact, we honour your vision, as the CRTC, in enabling the community and college broadcasters to exist for so many
years. Some of it has been tough. Some of the situations that exist in Toronto with the community broadcasters have made it
extremely difficult for them to survive in that kind of climate.
7305 But, actually, if you look at the college broadcasting community, that broadcast system is what leads the charge. I think
the private broadcasters and the CBC look toward it. It is the training ground in this country for broadcasting.
7306 We are going to utilize that as much as everyone else. We feel that we are equal. We are brothers and sisters with the
college and community broadcasters in this country. We are going to utilize their programming and take it nationally as best we
can.
7307 MR. MacLEOD: I would like to add two quick comments to that, if I could. One is that we realize that the Commission
faces similar difficult decisions when the CBC is proposing national services in urban markets across Canada where it is not
planning on putting any local programming in those markets, and obviously your concern would be the same with them: What
are they going to do to develop the programming?
7308 You have said that you accept that our intentions are good.
7309 I would remind you again that the plan in our application is to develop -- we need to develop an economy, and in order
to develop that economy we have to get the stations up in markets across Canada, and Toronto and Vancouver would be
great as a start, in order to build national advertising revenue, in order to build the local programming component that we need.
That is a big part of how this works.
2015
7310 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and I do understand that. It was just that piece that --
7311 You know, it is really important to me, the Regional Commissioner here, that those Aboriginal people from Vancouver
understand that the extent to which --
7312 I want to make sure that I am connecting with them in terms of what they are expecting of me. That is why I wanted to
explore that; to understand that it may well not --
7313 If all of these other pieces don't fall into place, it may be that there isn't going to be an infrastructure here to produce
programming, and it may be finding other ways to do it. Or revenues may come from other sources.
7314 That was just what I wanted to really make sure was understood.
7315 MR. KENNEDY: Madam Chair, I believe I hear and understand what you are saying about the challenges you face.
We have been here as many days and certainly know all of those other factors that you refer to if other things don't occur.
7316 In fact, the expectations that we have been told the Aboriginal community has here -- and Billie, I think, articulated it
clearly -- it was simple for me to understand -- is that they want to hear a national perspective. But that is two-way. If we
were in Ottawa speaking to the Aboriginal community there, there would be an expectation that it would go both ways.
7317 There is local programming here, which these people here produce, but that is now. They are doing it. We heard Cleo. I
think she said the key word. They do it. It is a labour of love and it is volunteered.
7318 What we have committed to -- if we have the package that we have put together, with $4.2 million to assist us, where
moneys would allow us to help not only the network but also local programming, then we would have a Class A. That is what
the Aboriginal people deserve, Class A. And I don't mean that in --
7319 I don't want to go off into a frequency --
7320 THE CHAIRPERSON: I understand that. And I don't mean to interrupt you.
7321 What I need to do, though, is to ask some of those "What if" questions, because it is really important for me to put them
on the table here so that we all understand that we have a number of things to face.
7322 That is all I wanted to do, was to ensure that there was that "What if" piece.
7323 I am not going to say one more thing.
7324 Commissioner Cram has a question.
7325 With Commissioner Cram, also, I wasn't sure that I picked up --
7326 Will you file these studies, Mr. Matthews, with us that you have?
7327 MR. MATTHEWS: Yes. You already have the frequency studies on file from the NewCap presentation.
7328 THE CHAIRPERSON: So there is nothing else that you have that we might want, that you talked about sharing with
some of the other --
7329 MR. MATTHEWS: In terms of technical detail, we will be providing everything we have done in terms of research to
Simon Fraser.
7330 THE CHAIRPERSON: And what about to us?
7331 MR. MATTHEWS: If you would like a copy, that would not be a problem.
7332 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
7333 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I would like to be clear about this issue of picking up programming from Co-op Radio,
because I know I asked this in Calgary, and I don't want the people here to have false expectations. We discussed the same
thing in Calgary, and I thought there was going to be a technical cost to that; that we had to get it into an uplink in order to get
it to Toronto, in order to downlink, and I thought I understood from you that the cost would be quite substantial.
7334 Am I incorrect?
7335 MR. KENNEDY: My understanding is that it is not substantial to do that, but certainly Mark or Mr. Matthews could
answer that.
7336 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So what would be stopping you from doing it effective September, or whenever your
licence comes up? Whenever Toronto rolls in.
7337 MR. KENNEDY: You asked about uplink.
7338 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Yes.
7339 MR. KENNEDY: That is without the large package. That is without meeting the expectations and the needs of the
community.
7340 We have a plan to go it alone, which is in our application, without the other factor that the Commissioners have
mentioned, which is the $4.2 million. We have that, and we will move forward, and we will have Toronto on the air, and we
will have a network.
7341 The expectations that the Aboriginal community -- it is not me, it is the Aboriginal community here in Vancouver and in
Calgary that you heard from, whether it is Margaret Rider representing the community there, or the people here.
7342 The $4.2 million will allow us to provide to the Aboriginal community, we believe, what the Aboriginal community
deserves. It won't be a shoestring.
7343 Why should we have to do that? Why should we have to go --
7344 Why would we have to wait all of those years, when we could accelerate and have an aggressive network and put radio
on the air in Ottawa, in the prairies, and in other places?
7345 We would like to do that, so that when Billie Pierre turns the radio on in Vancouver and says that she wants to hear a
national perspective, she will hear a national perspective, and she can also send it back through the radio.
7346 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Mr. Kennedy, my question was really a follow-up on Commissioner Grauer's, because the
question was asked of Mr. Farmer: Will you be putting this local programming on from Co-op Radio? The answer was yes.
7347 And I understood in Calgary that that was not going to happen -- because I asked an identical question in Calgary --
that that was not going to happen, that it was going to be national programming, and eventually you may use this.
7348 So my question is -- and my concern is the same issue: the expectations of the community here for local programming,
and what they should expect.
7349 Again, I ask: Will this kind of programming from Co-op Radio be uplinked and downlinked so that immediately, if this
station is licensed, the people here would have Co-op Radio local programming?
7350 That is the question I need to have answered.
7351 MR. FARMER: I'm sorry, Ms Cram, but in Calgary there was one program -- and also there was Margaret's input. Of
course, they are doing 50 hours a week. We have absolutely no problem --
7352 And I remember distinctly that I said I was anxious to get some of "The Best Drums in the Country". Now, that was, of
course, a program that they don't necessarily produce right now, but all we have to do is lay the seed and that program will be
produced in that community. But the "Beads and Feathers" program that exists at the University of Calgary right now can
easily be adopted to the network with no problem.
7353 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Mr. Farmer, I am asking today about Co-op Radio here and Vancouver programming. If
we gave you a licence, would that happen immediately? The licence is coming. You are putting your transmitter here. Would
the Co-op Radio programming be on the waves for the people of Vancouver?
7354 MR. FARMER: If it befits a national audience, yes it will.
7355 MR. MacLEOD: Could I follow that up, Commissioner Cram?
7356 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Can I just, please, finish this.
7357 So only, then, if it would be on the national network. It will not be, effectively, instantly a local package, even though you
are not producing it.
7358 MR. FARMER: It could, but in our -- yes, it very well could be.
7359 I am distinctly relating to what our delivery mechanism through the Aboriginal Peoples Television Network has outfitted
to us, that if the programming is of national interest -- now, local programming, I am sure, is of national interest. The one that
Kelly is producing here would be of national interest, and we could, yes, indeed put that on the national airwaves. No
problem. From the beginning.
7360 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Mr. MacLeod...?
7361 MR. MacLEOD: I just want to make it clear that part of our pledge to the community in Toronto -- and our licence
application in Toronto was that those people would hear programming from elsewhere, as well, the same as it is here.
7362 Your question, I think, was centring on whether there would be programming only heard in Vancouver and not heard in
Toronto --
7363 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Local programming, yes.
7364 MR. MacLEOD: Our application is that, according to your definition of local programming, we will only have basically
the community bulletin boards to start. However, there will be a great deal of programming produced locally, including that of
Co-op Radio -- potentially parts of that -- that will be heard in both markets, because both markets are interested in hearing
that programming.
7365 MS REECE: Could I also add something to that?
7366 If you look at what has happened with APTN, they are looking for programming constantly -- good programming. We
did find some here. VTV produces a half-hour public affairs/public interest show, a First Nations show, which has been
picked up by APTN and rebroadcast there. I can see the potential for good programs coming out of Vancouver doing the
same thing.
7367 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very, very much.
7368 Counsel has no questions. We have fully explored all of the issues.
7369 MR. KENNEDY: Thank you.
7370 MR. FARMER: Thank you.
6631 Please go ahead whenever you are ready.
APPLICATION / APPLICATION
6640 Also, we do literacy workshops and issue updates through e-mail.
6641 I am also a radio program producer at CFRO.
6731 We need this voice to overcome the ignorance of our history.
6732 We need this voice to offer positive role models and to balance negative media stereotypes.
6733 We need this voice to build greater understanding between Aboriginal people and other Canadians.
6734 And, most importantly, we need this voice in the struggle for healthy urban communities.
--- Upon recessing at 1830 / Suspension à 1830
--- Upon resuming at 1850 / Reprise à 1850
--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2030, to resume
on Friday, November 24, 2000 at 0900 / L'audience
est ajournée à 2030, pour reprendre le vendredi
24 novembre 2000 à 0900