Nov. 28, 2000

Notes by Laura Fraser and Debra Bell

Small Officer, Large Man

Witness George Moldovanos

Employed by the Sheriff service for the past ten years. This is the "large man" that other witnesses have identified as the civilian that used his weight to hold Anthany down. It is questioned whether this "large man" was part of the excessive force discussed in this inquest. He was off duty as a sheriff on sick leave the day of question. He first had seen a police vehicle and an ambulance before Richmond and Oak Bay. He made a left turn onto Richmond. He says that he thought Anthany was in a motor vehicle accident. He says that he watched Anthany leaving the scene. He watched a police officer initially chase him on foot. In his mind he thought that he could assist the police. He then maneuvered his vehicle around the block to come back on Oak Bay. This civilian purposefully set his role to play on this day. He was wearing a purplish shirt and sandals that day. He remembers Sheldan instructing him to "grab his right arm". Sheldan handed Moldovanos a set of handcuffs to put on Anthany. It appears constable Sheldan had no control that day if he had Moldovanos put the handcuffs on. *Earlier police officer testified that he would not engage Anthany because he knew he would have to use excessive force.

Who Had Control?

Why did Sheldan think he could have control? What control did he display? Why did Sheldan escalate the situation and then have to use a civilian to try and control the situation? Why did Hemstead let Sheldan act alone further up the street? *Hemstead previous officer that testified. This man has claimed that he did not sit on Anthany. He did admit using his upper body weight. Once the restraints were put in place he does not recall any thing else. He the said to Sheldan, "Whets up with that guy?" Sheldan responded, "he’s a 28, he’s a 28" this referring to a section 28. He then *advised Sheldan to take note that a passer buyer assisted him. However he was not really a passer buyer with his earlier intent to intervene. He was questioned about placing his knee in Anthany’s back. He was asked how much force he had to use. He admitted that he had to use a lot of his weight to keep Anthany down. He remembers seeing blood on Anthany’s right arm. Moldovanos is trained with police safety use of force system. *He has confirmed as earlier testimony that there is no training for police officers or peace officers to access whether or not the source from the behavior is based on a medical reason, mental illness, drugs or alcohol. Use of force has been used based on no training to access these possible situations. He admits there was a gap of time where he did not have his eyes on Anthany and Sheldan. It is certain that there are things he could not have seen when he was parking his car to assist. He believed that Anthany was in a car accident. *He believes there was some kind of head injury to Anthany. He could not understand Shedan’s actions. All Moldovanos choose to do was "mirror" Sheldan’s actions. He did not seem to model any kind of use of force techniques that are part of training.

Moldovanos Remembers Training for Positional Asphixia

Moldovanos thought something is wrong. Yet he did not question Sheldan. He wanted to stay away from "empty handed stunning techniques" because he thought Anthany’s head was injured. His understanding of empty-handed stunning techniques is the ability to use an open handed palm to strike the "rib cage" or "head". He said he avoided this because Anthany’s head was injured. He did not see or recall Anthany fighting with the police officer. Moldovanos is aware of positional asphyxia. He has been trained to place people on there side after they have been restrained.

Witness Cpl. William Trudeau

A member of the Victoria Police since 1985. Constable Hemstead put out a call for assistance. Trudeau responded in an unmarked police car. He heard that Hemstead would not act alone that he needed help. He then heard that Sheldan was on his way. When he arrived on scene he observed Sheldan and Hemstead holding Anthany to the ground. Moldovanous was no longer acting when he arrived. He assisted Sheldan and Hemstead to put Anthany on the stretcher. Anthany fell to the ground out of his grip. He flipped Anthany over and picked him up by the handcuffs. He does not remember anyone assisting him with his legs. He kept Anthany on the stretcher by using his weight on Anthany’s upper body. He did not assist with putting Anthany inside the ambulance. He heard the ambulance attendants say something like or similar, "we have to roll him over". Trudeau thought to himself "great now we have to flip him over". He did not go to assist the attendants. He did not see any other officers assist the attendants to turn Anthany over. He remembers "some chuckles" about the officers "rolling around on the ground with a naked man". He was driving a blue unmarked car. *Other witness remembers seeing a blue new car. When Anthany was in the ambulance he did hear Anthany any more. Examination of Trudeau Will Say, he learned by the beginning of his next shift that Anthany had gone into Cardiac arrest.

Trudeau Tight Lipped

He did not take much note because he believed that everything was pretty strait forward. That is why he did not really take any notes. He could not even remember when he was asked to do a Will Say and was sure he could not assist when he was requested. He said that he could not even remember what month he was asked.

Sheldan Fiddles With Hands and Bites Nails Through Testimony

He did not even think about flipping Anthany over on to his stomach when placing him on the stretcher. He did it as a reaction and did not think about whether or not was the best thing to do. He is not even sure if Saunderson and Knoop were even on the scene at this time. He believed that if Anthany were on his back that he was going to have a better chance of getting away. Is that even possible? Police van in Trudeau Will Say states Saunderson and Knoop arrived when Anthany was in ambulance. Trudeau questioned whether or not he was aware about Anthany going into Cardiac arrest. He did begin to say, "other then". Then rationalized that he heard the ambulance attendants say they had to roll him over. He did not go and assist with this. He said Anthany’s face was placed on left. There was a pillow under his head.

Three Officers Say They Didn’t Recognize Tony

They keep calling him Tony! He said not at the time did he recognize Anthany. Did he know Anthany before? He said the last time he had seen Anthany Dawson was the night before. He said that he had many dealings with Anthany. He said that Anthany’s face was "contorted" and could not recognize him. He says there was an offer to Anthany in the police van to transport him to hospital. He heard that afternoon that it was Tony Dawson and he remembered dealing with Anthany the night before. He issued Anthany a ticket. He could not remember what time he issued the ticket. He assumed Anthany was on a drug overdose. Trudeau defensive when he gets questioned about not making anyone aware that he knew Anthany was not on drugs the night before when he issued the ticket. He said, "There is no recognized technique". His hands were cuffed behind his back and he lifted him off the ground by the cuffs. When he lifted Anthany by handcuffs. He thought that was okay. Orr asked about the pain that could have been caused. Trudeau testifies he has used this tactic before. He did not seem to think this technique would be painful. Yet all of a persons weight would be strained on the shoulder blades. Copy of ticket discussed. Ticket issued at 11:30 p.m. for noise. Trudeau knew he was a suspect because of the Warrant Statement requested under the investigation. Trudeau does not remember any training on Positional Asphyxia in police training.

Witness Constable Dale Saunderson

Saunderson is the officer that drove the police van that arrived on the scene. He claims he could not recall any dispatch information except for naked male running on Oak Bay. When he arrived on scene he heard an order for leg restraints. He went to his van to get plastic restraints. The attendant had already had leather restraints. He held his right leg down to get the restraints on. He assisted an ambulance attendant to do this. It was not part of the stretcher equipment. It was ambulance equipment though. Saunders and Knoop assisted with turning Anthany over when attendants requested help. He could see when the ambulance was ready to leave they did not proceed. Saunders and Knoop became aware that the ambulance attendants had identified that Anthany had gone into Cardiac arrest. Knoop went into the ambulance to help with CPR.

He Left Hand Cuffs On

Saunderson removed the handcuffs off of Anthany when they got to the hospital. *After the Cardiac arrest. Saunderson as well made no notes like his collegues. He said that all straps were put on by ambulance attendants with little police assistants. Legs straps were taken off and then put on again and turned on his back. Anthany was not a threat and officer kept restraints on. A person in Cardiac arrest is not going to run away! He could not recall who’s handcuffs were on Anthany. He returned the handcuffs to someone but he did not know whom he returned them to. Police officers have failed memory and no notes to assist them.

Witness Constable Knoop

He did not think that he was fighting police. He thought that Anthany was not aware of police. He assisted attendants by holding down Anthany’s feet. He claims Trudeau did not lift him alone by the handcuffs. Others assisted with his lower body as well. He says that Anthany struggled until he went into the ambulance. He thinks the ankle restraints remained on Anthany. They went back to the van and waited for the ambulance to leave. Then realized something was wrong. He assisted with the CPR. He was responsible for chest compression. He did this from the scene until the hospital. In his mind he thought that it was to get him on the stretcher however they could. Knoop remembers one door open. Previous Trudeau said that both doors were closed. Knoop remembers hearing the ambulance attendants speaking. They did not do anything to assist in flipping Anthany over from his recollection. He did not think there was a medical reason for the attendants reasons for flipping Anthany over. The doors are left open and he hears the word, "arrest". He does nothing and returns to the van with Saunderson. He seemed to believe that there was two trained ambulance attendants and he was a police officer. When he went to assist with CPR. There was no thought to remove the handcuffs. He "absoulutley" assumed this was a drug overdose. He was asked for a Will Say on the 18^th of Aug. and provided a Will Say on the 19^th to the RCMP. A month later he was requested to provide a Warrant Statement.

Witness William Randall

Paramedic for the last nineteen years and has worked for Victoria for past three. EMA 2 level of training is his background. He received notice for a call for a patient with a seizure. He believed that Anthany was not aware of anyone around him. Anthany ran from this first scene. The ambulance then moved to the next scene at Bank and Oak Bay. He saw Anythany on the ground with his hands behind his back. The got the stretcher and put it right next to him. Officers were unsuccessful in putting him on the stretcher. Randall waited for the officers to place Anthany on stretcher. When he was on stretcher he then placed leather restraints on Anthany. Exhibit 34 picture of a stretcher. Blankets were on the stretcher but he does not recall a pillow. Ambulances are equipped with leather ankle restraints and wrist restraints. He recalls initially struggling on the first lift, second lift and third lift Anthany did not resist the restraints. When he came on the scene the second time Anthany was quiet. When the police officers went to lift him that is when he made noise again. When he was on the stretcher though he did not make noise again. He was not concerned with the position of Anthany. He believed his air way was clear. When he checked Anthany’s air way his face was strait down. When he went turn his head he realized that Anthany was not breathing. Attendants requested help to turn him over. Officers insisted they did not assist with turning Anthany over. *Police officers walked away in previous testimony. *Knoop said there was no medical reason for turning Anthany over. That is why he just walked back to the van. He could find no pulse. He gave him a fist bang on the chest to try and start the heart. They started a defibulator. He asked an officer to do chest compressions. An I.V. was not started because Randall is only an EMA 2. He was given no indication given by anyone that it was a possible drug overdose. He did not administer any medications that might be given for drug overdose. From his memory no lead him to believe that this was the case. There was no ALS crew in the vicinity. He said he asked his partner to notify an ALS crew to attend the scene. Randall elected not to stay and wait for an ALS crew. Instead they went strait to the hospital. He believed that it was about a half hour after they got to the hospital is when he was told it was drug use. He observed numerous obrations on Anthany. He said he knew that Anthany would not be transported in a prone position. He has tried to indicate that Anthany it was intended to be turned around as soon as he was put in the ambulance. He claims to never have seen this kind of complication of Positional Asphyxiation. He did not seem to think that this is what happened to Anthany. He said that he didn’t think that it could happen that quickly.

"Not on my stretcher" Randall

Randall did not fill out an incident report and he said it would not be usual for him to do so. Yet his partner filled one out. To date he was interview once on this case. He did not consider that there was a risk to Anthany. He said, "I was just happy that we got him on." There is no written policy to check the tightness of the straps when someone is restrained according to Randall. Markings show on Anthany’s arms possibly cause from the straps from the stretcher. He has agreed that he could not say one way or the other if the bruising is from the straps. He also said, "It is not always important to observe the head". He compared it to checking your mirror when you are driving. Randall could not access whether or not Anthany’s chest was able to expand. He could only access his head. *He has in a recorded statement from the investigation stated that Anthany’s face was in the pillow.

-------------

Moldavanos identified himself to Sheldon when Sheldon was

wrestling around with Anthany on the ground as an off duty

sheriff offering to help.

He said he is 280 lb and 5"10 1/2 " and when he was helping

Sleldon with Athany that they had a difficult time of it as the

man was very strong and full of sweat......they did handcuff him

with his hands behind his back but not without quite a struggle

he did not see any civilian helping them with Anthany

when he arrived at the scene, sheldon wsas not very successful in

holding Anthany down

Moldovanos did not sit on Anthany, he leaned the upper part of

his body over the top part of Anthany is all

recalls Anthany was screaming and swearing but does not recall

any specific words

recalls the other police arriving and thinking to himself it was

now time to exit the situation recalls feeling vulnerable as he

had seen blood at the scene-he received an abrasion during the

struggle

recalls seeing ambulance ,not sure if it was the same as the one

he’d first seen up the Road a bit

-recalls when Anthany was being lifted onto stretcher he broke

free , they had to catch him and lift him to stretcher again,

they put him facedown as his legs were flailing, recalls seeing

leg restraints recalls seeing seat belt restraints and seeing

these secured, cannot recall if Anthany was covered with a

blanket

recalls thinking he’d like to request from the ambulance an

antibiotic wipe to wipe his abrasion with recalls he was in an

extreme adrenaline rush and he asked the officers "whats up with

that gu" and a police man, maybe Sheldon said he’s a 28, a 28.

witness recalls telling the police can you just say a passerby

assisted you the policeman nodded to him

Orr asked witness-

did he see sheldon strike A? no

did he see anything that appeared to b a punch ? no

did anybody sit on his chest? no

after he was on his face did anyone sit on his back ? the witness

said he had his shin over Mr. Dawsons back as he was fighting

lots and he may have applied his weight as pressure to gain

control

was there any point where Mr. Dawson could not breath? no he was

screaming and yelling a lot

the witness saw blood smears around anthany’s arms, no other

injuries

Olsen, coroner asked him how long he ws involved with the

situation-maybe a minute or so

Olsen asked him if he recalled seeing a telus employee helping

out, he did not recall this